October 9 2007, numerologically a 10 or a 1
“The Prophet’s Bible” says that 1 is the sun with its power.
For sure the garden knows all about that. We’re still in a hot drought. On Monday we picked the last of the tomatoes and of this year’s huge crop of peppers. The dry weather has been good for the peppers, though not so good for the shiitake logs. We hope they didn’t dry out too much while we were traveling. (Have you seen the t-shirts reading “Full of shiitake”?) Gavin cut the lawn and generally closed the garden down. As soon as we get some rain, we will till it and let the cold break up the clods.
Apart from the garden this has been a busy week, with something new and different every day. Tuesday on a trip to the eye doctor in Lewisburg/Fairlea we chose to drive along the Greenbrier River (the longest undammed river remaining in the US). Old Man Winter had started using his paintbrush on the trees. On the mountaintops the maples were gloriously red, as were the Virginia creepers along the river itself. We saw a flock of Canada geese flying a vee down the river, gearing up for their departure southward. We felt very grateful to the Mother for such wonders.
Gavin passed his eye exam okay. Yvonne had to return on Friday for a laser interlude to clear the mist from her year-old replacement lenses. Can anyone tell Gavin why they can’t pre-treat those lenses before they install ’em in the eyeball? (It would stop him moaning about the reluctance of the medical establishment to try any innovation.)
Wednesday a trip in the opposite direction over Sandstone Mountain for Gavin to see a nephrologist in Beckley. Here’s a really interesting guy : played soccer against Pele–so he and Gavin had a lot to talk about. Gavin played soccer in school and college. That day he got a verdict of “okay for his age”, whatever that means.
Thursday a chance to finish one of our new books, “Termination Tango”. We plan to publish it with a companion piece “Wicked Waltz” as a double book. Both are detective stories in the modern–more sexually explicit–mode, with the wounded (Wiccan) fisher king as detective-protagonist.
Friday back to Lewisburg for the laser work, then on to the UU fellowship in Beckley for work with a small group to help them detach from their bodies and go astral. We are now convinced that before meditation in any mode, dark chocolate and red wine help those who don’t want to generate endorphins in a more natural way.
Add to that schedule three sets of water aerobics, and you can see we keep busy.

Pagan Temple
We agree with you that sacrificing someone or even burning an image is not an acceptable practice. Unfortunately current entertainment seems to glory in blood and guts. So I guess audiences like a lurid story if it has even a single virgin sacrifice a la the Meso-American cenote sacrifices.
For some reason Caesar Augustus hated Druids. In his Commentaries he wrote they burned prisoners in wicker cages, though the allegation seems unlikely. Judicial murder–execution–capital punishment–came into Celtic law only when Patrick imported Roman ecclesiastical law. The Irish Brehon law and the Welsh law of Hywel Dda were wergelt law, stipulating fines for causing the death of others, whether by accident or deliberately. Such fines depended on the honor value of the decedent. The culprit was expected to pay the fine; if s/he couldn’t, he had to substitute his own labor to make restitution. Because of this principle, slavery is said to have been part of both Brehon and Welsh law. Call us nit-pickers, but we see a significant difference between
a) paying a fine for a death with your day labor and
b) being enslaved.
So along with many other benefits of ecclesiastical law from Rome, Patrick brought judicial murder to Ireland. If we read between the lines, he himself had been fined for some act and had fled to England to avoid paying. We do not know why he was fined; but he must have committed some criminal act, for these events do not happen randomly from the clear blue. The Christian version is that he was enslaved, whereas we Frosts surmise that a pagan/Wiccan version of events would read rather differently.
In the old pre-Patrick law we see a reverence for the sanctity of life. The community needed every contributing hand possible to sustain themselves. So, Pagan Temple and others, you’re right : the killing of a sacred virgin would not have been tolerated–would have been unthinkable–in that society. Another facet of the same thinking : When two armies faced one another, each army elected a champion. Those two fought instead of the armies engaging. The system was still in place at the time of the early battles between Cisalpine Celts and Romans. The Romans outlawed it in 340 BCE. The outlawing of champions to represent nations may have been occasioned by Roman fear of the Celts, who had smashed a Roman army 40,000 strong at the battle of Allia on 18 July 390 BCE and had occupied Rome.

A Couple of Additional Notes
We enjoy Peter Beresford Ellis’ works on the Celts. He is a genuine historian, considered by many to be the foremost modern Celtic scholar, and a member of three royal societies. If you don’t like his historical works, read some of the Celtic fiction he wrote as Peter Tremayne, particularly the Fidelma works.
For the statisticians among you, the copyright date of “The Witch’s Bible” is 1972 CE. The text remained unchanged when it appeared as “Good Witch’s Bible”. All that happened was that we added approved chapter lead-ins to clarify text material.
We don’t find any new questions this week via blog. We hope we haven’t scared blog-visitors off or bored ’em. If we ever stop making people think, we’ve lost our touch.
Blessed be those of open mind. Gavin and Yvonne

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    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    Gavin, Shadowhawk here,I agree Peter Beresford Ellis is a great historical writer i personally own his book The Druids in paperback. Was one of the catalysts that steered myself towards druidism. And as far as those who didnt like the druids, it is true the druid detractors were many, altho i wonder were things would be with out strabo and others. Those that seem to have decent grasp on various parts and eras in my mind are folks like.Mircea Eliade, Ronald Hutton, Nigel Pennick, Reese and Reese and others. On my radio show in which i Interviewed Wushih and Fenix, we talked about the idea of sacrifice in effigy as we understood it in a pagan context, and then the mode in which Mr Drew plans to utilize such magick, could possibly and most likely have ill or negative repercussions for its participants. Looking forward to your visit to our Witches Ball . Enjoy your travels
    Blessed Be Shadowhawk

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    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |

    Gavin, Yvonne-

    “We don’t find any new questions this week via blog. We hope we haven’t scared blog-visitors off or bored ’em. If we ever stop making people think, we’ve lost our touch.”

    Probably from your Sept.29 post, “Questions, Questions, Questions” some people might have got the idea you didn’t have time to answer a lot of questions. Believe me, the last thing this blog can be described as is boring.

    “Pagan Temple
    We agree with you that sacrificing someone or even burning an image is not an acceptable practice. Unfortunately current entertainment seems to glory in blood and guts. So I guess audiences like a lurid story if it has even a single virgin sacrifice a la the Meso-American cenote sacrifices.”

    Ouch-have you been reading my novel? If so, nice burn. If not, I can certainly understand why you wouldn’t have the stomach for it. Yeah, I guess I don’t have much room to talk. HaHaHaHa

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    Rhiannon| October 9, 2007 |

    Well I still have questions that have not been answered. SOOOOO….
    Why was Roots of Civilization used for documentation in GWB. If you could possibly state what part you used it would help a lot in understanding the writing of good Witches Bible.

    As far as fines, killing, crimes, and sacrifice….
    People have been put to death since time began for committing crimes. (Study real history especially early Medieval)
    Sacrifices have also been done since time began. NOT that I agree with doing so but it is a part of history and religion.
    Also Voodoo religion has and still does such.

    Blessings to those with an open mind to All religions.
    Bless the children.

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    ajdrew| October 9, 2007 |

    Gavin and Yvonne Frost – You self published the book in 1995 and 2000. The 2000 edition indicates the added information was in that publication. Can you confirm that it was not present when you self published in 1995?

    You say the original content was the same in the 1972 and in the Good Witches Bible. I think GWB was first published in 1995, withotu the addistions. Is that true?

    Were there any changes in the printings between 1972 and the 1995 edition which would explain why Dr. Raymond Buckland said you had removed the information that so many object to?

    Did you lie to Dr. Raymond Buckland or has he lied to me? Isaac Bonewits was also reportedly told the material was removed. Did you lie to him or did he lie to us?

    Is it possible nobody lied to anybody? Maybe you published the book in 1972 with the content, removed it for several years, and then added it back in in 1995 or 2000 with the disclaimers?

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    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |


    They were talking about early Celtic history. I don’t know if they were right or not, as I don’t know squat about ancient Celtic times, but that is the period of time they were talking about, and the culture they were talking about.

    Why should they “especially” study medieval history. What is so damned important about the Middle Ages? What the hell is the attraction?

    I’ve read about it, and all the hell I see is a bunch of ignorant fools killing cats because they were worshiped in Egypt, refusing to take baths because that was a luxury enjoyed by the Romans, and throwing so much garbage out in the streets that eventually a third of the population died from bubonic plaque. Then, because there was an overabundance of forests due to the lack of people to clear land and farm, Europe came down with a mini ice age.

    That is your goddamned medieval history, in a nutshell. Oh, that and burning old woman suffering from dementia on non-credible accusations of witchcraft.

    The little Ren fairs you are so attracted to had nothing to do with pagan times, but hey, that’s all right. Go on, dress up in your little knight costumes and have your little faux jousting matches, and pretend you are reliving the glory days of paganism (even though those times didn’t have a damn thing to do with the far earlier real pagan times), but in the meantime, while you are doing so, don’t lecture others on their own historical fantasies.

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    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |

    Hey, by the way, A J Drew-

    Guess what ancient culture practiced removal “intacta” from virgins? Not only did they remove the female hymen from virgins, but on the girls wedding days, which took place a few days after the removal of the hymen, the mother of the bride would present the hymen-which was called a “token”-to the grooms family.

    I don’t know whether any dildos were involved, and I suspect not, but at any rate, I thought you might like to know, there is an ancient culture that practiced this.

    Now, I wonder if you can guess Jew-err, I mean who-they were.

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    medicineheart| October 9, 2007 |

    It’s funny how AJ would take half truths, lies and innuendo to fit his agenda. The funny thing is that NO ONE has asked ME about the truth of my paper poppet nor the reasoning behind it.

    Yep, shouting from the rooftop to get your message heard AJ is a real brainy thing to do. Go take your medicine for your brain damage– seems that the brain injury affected the area of the brain that is making you paranoid.

    Just to update everyone– yes, I am STILL on the board for Pagan Pride and I am STILL the registry agent for CUUPS. No matter what amount of complaining or demanding anyone does– I won’t be removed from these positions. As for Cyndi, that situation that occured back in 2003/4 was to report her for threatening and harassing emails that were emigrating from her P&G account– it wasn’t to out her as a pagan. The emails just happen to be pagan in nature when I reported her. No big deal though- I have heard many nasty things about her in return and the community knows about her antics and her being nuts. She even faked her own death on the lists.

    Also to clarify another thing about the Pentacle Quest– I was put on as a plaintiff two weeks before the case was settled. It was by adding me and my hubby and by finding three hidden documents which tipped the scales in our favor. However, I was part of the Quest all along speaking in various city’s across the U.S. in support of pentacle being approved a religous emblem for veteran headstone markers. So AJ, when you die, thanks to me and the others hard work you can have that pentacle now.

    Yea, I know that this piece of the blog will wind up in your blog AJ, I’m not stupid– it’s how you keep the perpetual witch war going. You’ve had my email address as I am a member of PaganNation. You could just emailed me for the truth but you didn’t. Wuss.

    Jill MH

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    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    Jill –

    I’ve also offered to talk with Mr. Drew about the Frosts and the accusations of pedophilia, but he doesn’t want to speak with me directly, either. He prefers the public forum, which is fine, really, because I have nothing to hide. I guess I thought he was serious about knowing the truth as to whether or not anyone was ever actually abused because of the Witches’ Bible.

    Is it just me or does he keep changing his direction?

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    medicineheart| October 9, 2007 |

    Fenix– he does sort of keep changing it– and doesn’t wish to speak directly to anyone– he is only taking what he get’s as hearsay information and not going directly to the source get the CORRECT the information.

    As for Gavin and Yvonne, I have to remain neutral on this issue since I am on the board of Pagan Pride. But I haven’t heard of anyone being abused by them or any accusations in my 18 years of walking this pagan path. If something DID happen, I am sure that they would have come forward by now– but no one has– no harm, no foul done. I am sure that AJ will take this blog response out of context in his next blogging episode.

    In all honesty, I do feel sorry for AJ because of the brain damage. What is damaged is forever gone and he will never regain it back. No matter how much medication you take– what is fried is gone forever. I know what brain injury is like since I am a brain injury caregiver. To lessen your chances of stroke, quit smoking. That has been my mission for the last two years in my mundane life.

    Not to be mean or anthing, but after speaking with various pagan leaders over the course of these past weeks, there aren’t too many people out there who think very highly of AJ. Let’s put it this way, I can’t even repeat their words in this blog response because they didn’t have very nice things to say. Basically they are just brushing him off with the back of their hands as he’s being seen as annoyance in the community.

    Oh, I remember I was up at his store I think back in summer 2004– they were suppose to be anti abortion protesters coming to town (which they did) but he played it up that they were going to protest his store Salem West. So like the good person I was, I drove three hours up to Columbus to support him along with a friend from Chillicothe. They never showed up at his place and he just used it as a big publicity stunt to generate paranoia about his store. I do think a brick was throw into his window that weekend or earlier but that was about it. He’s also not every trustworthy– renigging on his promises made to a person for a donation for sword or athame for raffle or something.

    So much for character!


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    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    Aj reminds of the Little Engine that could. He tries to get up that hill chanting, I Think I Can, but instead hes out of steam goes nowhere and spins his wheels
    Drew is a Pagan Pariah if there ever was one

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    Rhiannon| October 9, 2007 |

    Gee Pagan Temple you sound very angry.
    Medieval history has so much more to learn from that what you have said . Yep they had misconceptions just as many have had through the ages. BUT there was a lot to be learned from the history such as they did learn that cats did do good.
    Also even before 60A.D. people were more than just fined for breaking the law. They were put to death. Caesar was one of those who decided not to mess with the English because of some of the “tactics” that were used in defending their home. The Welsh are well known for their ability to “hit and run”. They would hide and then ambush then fade into the back ground never to be found. The only problem I may see with the Frosts talking about Caesar is the time frame.

    As far as the lens thing I don’t understand why they can’t get them right the first time either.
    I wanted to also ask the Frosts if they can stuff from their garden?????

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    Rhiannon| October 9, 2007 |

    Ok first Pagan Temple I am not a Rennie. Although I wouldn’t mind it because they do seem to have a great deal of fun!
    I study history especially religions.

    Now for this to blow some minds if you can stand it! 🙂

    On Witan Law from Yale Law School
    The laws of all nations which have developed steadily and in their own seats, with little or no intermixture of foreign elements, are generally perpetuated by custom and oral tradition. Hence the earliest written laws contain amendments of older unwritten customs, or codifications of those customs when they are gradually wearing out of popular recollection. Such documents are then generally obscure, requiring for their elucidation a knowledge of the customs they were intended to amend, which is not easily attainable; and where they are clear, they will be found frequently to contain little more than assessments of fines for offenses and injuries, with very scanty indications of the process by which the laws are made or the fines exacted. Nor is the case much better where codification is attempted; for the diversity of customs being very great, and the code not intended to supersede but to perpetuate them, the lawgiver is apt to become didactic, and to enunciate principles drawn from religion or morality, rather than legal definitions. The following extracts from the Anglo-Saxon Laws and Institutes may seem a very small residuum, after the winnowing of a very bulky ‘Corpus Juris.’ But they will be found to contain nearly every mention that occurs in the Collection of our Laws of such matters as public assemblies, courts of law, taxation, or the legal machinery on the carrying out of which the discipline of self-government is based. The great bulk of the laws concern chiefly such questions as the practice of compurgation, ordeal, wergild, sanctity of holy places, persons, or things; the immunity of estates belonging to churches; and the tables of penalties for crimes, in their several aspects as offenses against the peace, the family, and the individual. These, as touching Constitutional History in a very indirect way, are here excluded.

    Of the existing Anglo-Saxon laws, those of Ethelbert, Hlothere and Eadric, Wihtred, Ine, Edward the Elder, Athelstan, Edmund, and Edgar, are mainly of the nature of amendments of custom. Those of Alfred, Ethelred, Canute, and those described as Edward the Confessor’s, aspire to the character of codes; but English law, from its first to its latest phase, has never possessed an authoritative, constructive, systematic, or approximately exhaustive statement, such as was attempted by the great compilers of the civil and canon laws, by Alfonso the Wise or Napoleon Buonaparte. The translation of the following extracts is that of Mr. Benjamin Thorpe, in the Ancient Laws and Institutes of the Anglo-Saxons.

    A. D. 600. Kent. ETHELBERT; cap. 2. If the king call his ‘leod’ to him and any one there do them evil, let him compensate with a twofold ‘bot’ and fifty shillings to the king.

    A. D. cir. 680. Kent. HLOTHAERE AND EADRIC; cap. 8. If one man make plaint against another in a suit, and he cite the man to a ‘methel’ or to a ‘ thing,’ let the man always give ‘borh’ to the other, and do him such right as the Kentish judges prescribe to them.

    A. D. cir. 690. Wessex. INI; Preamble to Laws. I, Ini, by God’s grace king of the West Saxons, with the counsel and with the teaching of Cenred my father, and of Hedde my bishop, and of Eorcenwold my bishop, with all my ealdormen and the most distinguished ‘witan’ of my people, and also with a large assembly of God’s servants, have been considering of the health of our souls and of the stability of our realm; so that just law and just kingly dooms might be settled and established throughout our folk, so that none of the ealdormen nor of our subjects should hereafter pervert these our dooms.

    Cap. 8. If any one demand justice before a ‘scirman’ or other judge and cannot obtain it, and a man (the defendant) will not give him ‘wedd,’ let him make ‘bot’ with xxx. shillings, and within vii. days do him justice.

    Cap. 11. If any one sell his own countryman, bond or free, though he be guilty, over sea, let him pay for him according to his ‘wer.’

    Cap. 36. Let him who takes a thief, or to whom one taken is given, and he then lets conceals the theft, pay for the thief according to his ‘wer.’ If he be an ealdorman, let him forfeit his shire, unless the king is willing to be merciful to him.

    Cap. 39. If any one go from his lord without leave, or steal himself away into another shire, and he be discovered, let him go where he was before, and pay to his lord lx. shillings.

    Cap. 45. ‘bot’ shall be made for the king’s ‘burg-bryce’ and a bishop’s, where his jurisdiction is, with cxx. shillings; for an ealdorman’s, with lxxx. shillings; for a king’s thegn’s, with lx. shillings; for a ‘gesithcund’ man’s, having land, with xxxv. shillings, and according to this make the legal denial.

    Cap. 51. If a ‘gesithcund’ man owning land neglect the ‘fyrd,’ let him pay cxx. shillings and forfeit his land; one not owning land, lx. shillings; a ceorlish man, xxx. shillings, as ‘fyrdwite.’

    A. D. cir. 890. Wessex. ALFRED; Preamble….They then ordained…. that secular lords, with their (the bishops and witan) leave might without sin take for almost every misdeed, for the first offence the money ‘bot’ which they then ordained; except in cases of treason against a lord; to which they dared not assign any mercy…. I, then, Alfred, king, gathered these (laws) together, and commanded many of those to be written which our forefathers held, those which to me seemed good; and many of those which seemed to me not good I rejected them, by the counsel of my ‘witan’ …. I, then, Alfred, king of the West Saxons, shewed these to all my ‘witan’ and they then said that it seemed good to them all to be holder.

    Cap. 4. If any one plot against the king’s life, of himself, or by harbouring of exiles, or of his men; let him be liable in his life and in all that he has…. He who plots against his lord’s life, let him be liable in his life to him, and in all that he has. . .

    Cap. 22 If any one at the folkmote make declaration of a debt, and afterwards wish to withdraw it, let him charge it on a righter person, if he can; if he cannot, let him forfeit his ‘angylde,’ and [let the reeve] take possession of the ‘wite.’

    Cap. 27. If a man, kinless of paternal relatives, fight and slay a man, and then if he have maternal relatives, let them pay a third of the ‘wer;’ his guild-brethren a third part; for a third let him flee. If he have no maternal relatives, let his guild-brethren pay half, for half let him flee.

    Cap. 28. If a man kill a man thus circumstanced, if he have no relatives, let half be paid to the king, half to his guild-brethren.

    Cap. 38. If a man fight before a king’s ealdorman in the ‘gemot,’ let him make ‘bot’ with ‘wer’ and ‘wite,’ as it may be right; and before this, cxx. shillings to the ealdorman as ‘wite.’ If he disturb the folkmote by drawing his weapon, cxx. shillings to the ealdorman as ‘ wite.’ If aught of this happen before a king’s ealdorman’s junior, or a king’s priest, xxx. shillings as ‘wite.’

    Cap. 41. The man who has ‘boc-land,’ and which his kindred left him, then ordain we that he must not give it from his ‘maeg-burg,’ if there be writing or witness that it was forbidden by those men who at first acquired it, and by those who gave it to him, that he should do so; and then let that be declared in the presence of the king and of the bishop before his kinsmen.

    A. D. 879. ALFRED AND GUTHRUM’S PEACE. This is the peace that King Alfred and King Guthrum, and the ‘witan’ of all the English nation, and all the people that are in East Anglia, have all ordained and with oaths confirmed, for themselves and for their descendants, as well for born as for unborn, who reck of God’s mercy or of ours.

    1. Concerning our land boundaries; Up on the Thames, and then up on the Lea, and along the Lea unto its source, then right to Bedford, then up on the Ouse unto Watling Street.

    2. Then is this: If a man be slain, we estimate all equally dear, English and Danish, at viii. half marks of pure gold; except the ‘ceorl’ who resides on ‘gafol’ land and their ‘liesings;’ they also are equally dear, either at cc shillings.

    3. And if a king’s thegn be accused of man-slaying, if he dare to clear himself, let him do that with xii. king’s thegns. If any one accuse that man who is of less degree than the king’s thegn, let him clear himself with xi. of his equals and with one king’s thegn. And so in every suit which may be for more than iv. mancuses. And if he dare not, let him pay for it threefold, as it may be valued.

    4. And that every man know his warrantor for men, and for horses, and for oxen.

    5. And we all ordained on that day that the oaths were sworn, that neither bond nor free might go to the host without leave, no more than any of them to us. But if it happen that from necessity any of them will have traffic with us or we with them, with cattle and with goods, that is to be allowed in this wise: that hostages be given in pledge of peace, and as evidence whereby it may be known that the party has a clean back.

    A. D. cir. 920. Wessex. EDWARD; cap. 4. King Edward exhorted his witan, when they were at Exeter, that they should all search out how their ‘frith’ might be better than it had previously been; for it seemed to him that it was more indifferently observed than it should be, what he had formerly commanded. He then asked them who would apply to its amendment, and be in that fellowship that he was, and love that which he loved, and shun that which he shunned, both on sea and on land. That is, then, that no man deny justice to another; if any one so do, let him make ‘bot’ as it before is written: for the first offense, with xxx. shillings; and for the second offense, the like; and for the third, with cxx. shillings to the king.

    Cap. 11. I will that each reeve have a ‘gemot’ always once in four weeks, and so do that every man be worthy of folk-right; and that every suit have an end, and a term when it shall be brought forward. If that any one disregard, let him make ‘bot’ as we before ordained.

    Of Oaths.
    Thus shall a man swear fealty oaths. By the Lord before whom this relic is holy, I will be to A. faithful and true, and love all that he loves, and shun all that he shuns, according to God’s law, and according to the world’s principles; and never, by will nor by force, by word nor by work, do aught of what is loathful to him; on condition that he me keep as I am willing to deserve, and all that fulfil that our agreement was, when I to him submitted and chose his will.

    Of People’s Ranks and Law.
    1. It was whilom, in the laws of the English, that people and law went by ranks, and then were the counsellors of the nation of worship worthy, each according to his condition, eorl and ceorl, thegen and theoden.

    2. And if a ceorl throve, so that he had fully five hides of his own land, church and kitchen, bell-house and burh-gate-seat, and special duty in the king’s hall, then was he thenceforth of thegn-right worthy.

    3. And if a thegn throve, so that he served the king, and on his summons rode among his household; if he then had a thegn who him followed, who to the king’s ‘utware’ five hides had, and in the king’s hall served his lord, and thrice with his errand went to the king, he might thenceforth with his ‘foreoath’ his lord represent at various needs, and his plaint lawfully conduct, wheresoever he ought.

    4. And he who so prosperous a vicegerent had not, swore for himself according to his right, or it forfeited.

    5. And if a thegn throve so that he became an eorl, then was he thenceforth of eorl-right worthy.

    6. And if a merchant throve, so that he fared thrice over the wide sea by his own means, then was he thenceforth of thegn-right worthy.

    7. And if there a scholar were, who through learning throve, so that he had holy orders, and served Christ, then was he thenceforth of rank and power so much worthy. as then to those orders rightfully belonged, if he himself conducted so as he should; unless he should misdo, so that he those orders’ ministry might not minister.

    8. And if it happened that any one a man in orders, or a stranger, anywhere injured, by word or work, then pertained it to king and to bishop, that they that should make good as they soonest might.

    Of Wergilds.
    1. The north people’s king’s gild is 30,000 thrymsas; 15,000 are for the wergild, and 15,000 for the cynedom. The wer belongs to the kindred and the cynebot to the people.

    2. An archbishop’s and an aetheling’s wergild is 15,000 thrymsas.

    3. A bishop’s and ealdorman’s, 8000 thrymsas.

    4. A hold’s and a king’s high reeve’s, 4000 thrymsas.

    5. A mass thegn’s and a secular thegn’s, 2000 thrymsas.

    6. A ceorl’s wergild is 266 thrymsas, that is 200 shillings by Mercian law….

    A. D. cir. 930. ATHELSTAN. Conc. Greatanlea.

    2. Of lordless men. And we have ordained, respecting those lordless men of whom no law can be got, that the kindred be commanded that they domicile him to folk-right, and find him a lord in the folk-mote; and if they then will not or cannot produce him at the term, then be he thenceforth a ‘flyma,’ and let him slay him for a thief who can come at him; and whoever after that shall harbour him, let him pay for him according to his ‘wer,’ or by it clear himself

    12. And we have ordained, that no man buy any property out of port over xx. pence; but let him buy there within, on the witness of the port-reeve, or of another untying man; or further, on the witness of the reeves at the folk-mote.

    20. If any one [when summoned] fail to attend the gemot thrice, let him pay the king’s ‘oferhyrnes,’ and let it be announced seven days before the gemot is to be. But if he will not do right, nor pay the ‘oferhyrnes,’ then let all the chief men belonging to the ‘burh’ ride to him, and take all that he has, and put him in ‘both.’ But if any one will not ride with his fellows, let him pay the king’s ‘oferhyrnes.’ . . .

    ATHELSTAN. Conc. Exon.; cap. 1. And let there be named in every reeve’s ‘manung’ as many men as are known to be unlying, that they may be for witness in every suit. And be the oaths of these untying men according to the worth of the property without election.

    ATHELSTAN Judicia Civitatis Lundoniae; Preamble. This is the ordinance which the bishops and reeves belonging to London have ordained and with ‘weds’ confirmed, among our ‘frith-gegildas’ as well eorlish as ceorlish, in addition to the dooms which were fixed at Greatanlea and at Exeter and at Thunresfeld.

    Cap. iii. That we count always x. men together, and the chief should direct the nine in each of those duties which we have all ordained; and [count] afterwards their ‘hyndens’ together, and one ‘hynden man’ who shall admonish the x. for our common benefit; and let these xi. hold the money of the ‘hynden,’ and decide what they shall disburse when aught is to pay, and what they shall receive, if money should arise to us at our common suit; and let them also know that every contribution be forthcoming which we have all ordained for our common benefit, after the rate of xxx. pence or one ox; so that all be fulfilled which we have ordained in our ordinances and which stands in our agreement.

    Cap. viii. I. That we gather to us once in every month, if we can and have leisure, the ‘hynden-men’ and those who direct the tithings, as well with ‘bytt-fylling’ as else it may concern us, and know what of our agreement has been executed: and let these xii. men have their reflection together, and feed themselves according as they may deem themselves worthy and deal the remains of the meat for love of God.

    2. And if it then should happen that any kin be so strong and so great, within land or without land, whether xii. ‘hynde’ or ‘twy-hynde;’ that they refuse us our right, and stand up in defence of a thief; that we all of us ride thereto with the reeve within whose ‘manung’ it may be….

    A. D. 959-975. EDGAR. Ordinance of the Hundred.
    It cannot be determined without question what is the historical connexion between the system of the Hundred, as exemplified in the hundred warriors and the hundred counsellors of the Germania, and the later institution of police organization and territorial division known under this name in England. The existence of a territorial subdivision intermediate between the vicus or township and the shire or under-kingdom, such as is known in various parts of England in the present day as the hundred, the wapontake, the lathe, or the rape, may be regarded as proved by numerous passages in Bede and the Chronicles; and this subdivision may be regarded as answering roughly to the pagus of Tacitus or the icon of Germany. But it is not equally clear when, how, or why the name of ‘hundred’ was first applied in the majority of the counties to this subdivision. It is sometimes stated that the hundred is a primitive subdivision consisting of a hundred hides of land, or apportioned to a hundred families: the great objection to plaice theory is the impossibility of reconciling the historical hundreds with any such computation. Another theory regards the use of the term as much more modern, and as arising from the police arrangement exemplified in the following document, and in two much earlier ones of Childebert and Clothaire, of the year 595, which exist among the Capitularies of the Frank kings. Upon this theory the ‘hundred’ was originally the association of a hundred persons for the conservation of peace and execution of law, parallel with the later institution of the tithing or association of ten freemen for a similar purpose. In process of time, the name of ‘hundred’ would naturally extend to the territory protected by this association, as the tithing itself became, in later times and in certain districts, a local division. This theory is more probable than the former, but requires to be adjusted in point of date and locality. We are not to regard the ordinances of Childebert and Clothaire, or this of Edgar, as the institution of an entirely new organization, and as creating the district as well as the police system from which it took its name. It would be as difficult to prove any historical connexion between the decrees of 595 and the ordinance of Edgar, as it would to trace either directly to the ‘centeni’ of the Germania. But it is extremely probable that both legislators utilised an existing machinery which was originally and closely allied to the centeni of Tacitus. There are thus three points: the existence of the subdivision of the shire, which is unquestionable; the existence of the machinery of the hundred for police purposes, which emerges in these ordinances, but which may fairly be presumed to be traceable to the analogy of the primitive usage, and which may have been customary for ages, during which there is no direct record of it; and, thirdly, the application of the personal name and organization of the hundred to the already existing territorial division, which occurs in Germany as well as in England. The last thus viewed becomes of minor importance; as the special names applied to the particular hundreds must in most cases have existed previous to the application. The hundred-court was the ordinary court of justice among the Franks and bore the name of mallus. The law of Childebert and Clothaire recognizes the existence of the territorial hundred even whilst instituting a new measure of police. The law of Edgar has a very much wider operation, regulating the practice of the hundred-court in other respects. The coincidence in the wording of the two documents is remarkable, rather as exhibiting the traces of ancient common institutions than as proving any direct connexion.

    A. D. 959-975. EDGAR. This is the ordinance how the Hundred shall be held.

    1. First, that they meet always within four weeks; and that every man do justice to another.

    2. That a thief shall be pursued…. If there be present need, let it be made known to the hundredman, and let him make it known to the tithingmen; and let all go forth to where God may direct them to go. Let them do justice on the thief, as it was formerly the enactment of Edmund. And let the ‘ceapgild’ be paid to him who owns the cattle, and the rest be divided into two; half to the hundred, half to the lord, excepting men, and let the lord take possession of the men.

    3. And the man who neglects this, and denies the doom of the hundred, and the same be afterwards proved against him, let him pay to the hundred xxx. pence; and for the second time lx. pence, half to the hundred, half to the lord. If he do so a third time, let him pay half a pound; for the fourth time, let him forfeit all that he owns, and be an outlaw, unless the king allow Him to remain in the country.

    4. And we have ordained, concerning unknown cattle, that no one should possess it without the testimonies of the men of the hundred, or of the tithingman; and that he be a well trusty man; and unless he have either of these, let no vouching to warranty (team) be allowed him.

    5. We have also ordained, if the hundred pursue a track into another hundred, that notice be given to the hundredman, and that he then go with them. If he neglect this, let him pay xxx. shillings to the king.

    6. If any one flinch from justice and escape, let him who held him to answer for the offense pay the ‘an-gylde.’ And if any one accuse him of having sent him away, let him clear himself, as it is established in the country.

    7. In the hundred, as in any other ‘gemot,’ we ordain that folk-right be pronounced in every suit, and that a term be fixed when it shall be fulfilled. And he who shall break that term, unless it be by his lord’s decree, let him make ‘bot’ with xxx. shillings, and on the day fixed fulfil that which he ought to have done before.

    8. An ox’s bell, and a dog’s collar, and a blast-horn-either of these three shall be worth a shilling, and each is reckoned an informer.

    9. Let the iron that is for the threefold ordeal weigh iii. pounds; and for the single, one pound.

    A. D. 959-975. EDGAR. Ordinance. This is the ordinance that King Edgar, with the counsel of his witan, ordained, in praise of God, and in honour to himself, and for the behoof of all his people.

    1. These, then, are first: That God’s churches be entitled to every right; and that every tithe be rendered to the old minster to which the district belongs; and that be then so paid, both from a thegn’s ‘in-land’ and from ‘geneat’ land, so as the plough traverses it….

    Secular Ordinance; cap. I. Now this is the secular ordinance which I will that it be held. This, then, is first what I will: that every man be worthy of folk-right, as well poor as rich; and that righteous dooms be judged to him; and let there be such remission in the ‘bot’ as may be becoming before God and tolerable before the world.

    Cap. 2. And let no one apply to the king in any suit, unless he at home may not be worthy of law, or cannot obtain law. If the law be too heavy, let him seek a mitigation of it from the king; and for any ‘bot’ worthy crime let no man forfeit more than his ‘wer.’

    Cap. 5. And let the hundred gemot be attended as it was before fixed; and thrice in the year let a burh-gemot be held; and twice, a shire-gemot; and let there be present the bishop of the shire and the ealdorman, and there both expound as well the law of God as the secular law.

    Cap. 6. And let every man so order that he have a ‘borh’; and let the ‘borh’ then bring and hold him to every justice; and if any one then do wrong and run away, let the ‘borh’ bear that which he ought to bear. But if it be a thief, and if he can get hold of him within twelve months, let him deliver him up to justice, and let be rendered unto him what he before had paid.

    Cap. 8. And let one money pass throughout the king’s dominion; and that let no man refuse; and let one measure and one weight pass, such as is observed at London and at Winchester. . …

    Supplement; cap. 3. This, then, is what I will: that every man be under ‘borh,’ both within the ‘burhs’ and without the ‘burhs;’ and let witness be appointed to every ‘burh’ and to every hundred.

    Cap. 4. To every ‘burh’ let there be chosen xxxiii. as witness.

    Cap. 5. To small ‘burhs’ and in every hundred xii. unless ye desire more.

    Cap. 6. And let every man, with their witness, buy and sell every of the chattels that he may buy or sell, either in a burh or in a wapontake; and let every of them, when he is first chosen as witness, give the oath that he never, neither for money, nor for love, nor for fear, will deny any of those things of which he was witness, nor declare any other thing in witness save that alone which he saw or heard; and of such sworn men let there be at every bargain two or three as witness.

    A. D. 978-1016. ETHELRED. I. This is the ordinance which King Ethelred and his witan ordained as ‘frith-bot’ for the whole nation, at Woodstock, in the land of the Mercians, according to the law of the English.

    Cap. I. Of ‘Borhs.’ That is, that every freeman have a true ‘borh,’ that the ‘borh’ may present him to every justice, if he should be accused. But if he be ‘tyhtbysig,’ let him go to the threefold ordeal. If his lord say that he has failed neither in oath nor ordeal since the gemot was at Bromdun, let the lord take with him two true thegns within the hundred, and swear that never bath oath failed him, nor had he paid ‘theof-gyld;’ unless he have the reeve who is competent to do that. If then the oath succeed, let the man then who is there accused choose whichever he will, either single ordeal, or a pound-worth oath, within the three hundreds, for above thirty pence. If they dare not take the oath, let him go to the triple ordeal And let every lord have his household in his own ‘borh.’

    II. Cap. 6. If the frith-breach be committed within a ‘burh,’ let the inhabitants of the ‘burh’ themselves go and get the murderers, living or dead, or their nearest kindred, head for head. If they will not, let the ealdorman go; if he will not, let the king go; if he will not, let the ealdordom lie in ‘unfrith.’

    III. Cap. 3 And that a gemot be held in every wapontake; and the xii. senior thegns go out, and the reeve with them, and swear on the relic that is given them in hand, that they will accuse no innocent man, nor conceal any guilty one…..

    Cap. II. And let no man have any soken over a king’s thegn except the king himself.

    V. Cap. 2. And the ordinance of our lord and of his witan is, that Christian men and uncondemned be not sold out of the country, especially into a heathen nation; and be it jealously guarded against, that those souls perish not that Christ bought with his own life.

    Cap. 3. And the ordinance of our lord and of his witan is, that Christian men for all too little be not condemned to death; but in general let mild punishments be decreed, for the people’s need; and let not, for a little, God’s handiwork and His own purchase be destroyed, which He dearly bought.

    Cap. 26. But let God’s law be henceforth zealously loved, by word and deed, then will God soon be merciful to this nation: and let ‘frithes-bot’ and ‘feos-bot’ everywhere in the country, and ‘burh-bot’ on every side, and ‘bric-bot,’ and the armaments (fyrdung) also be diligently attended to, according to what is always prescribed when there is need.

    Cap. 28. And if any one without leave return from the ‘fyrd’ in which the king himself is, let it be at the peril of himself and all his estate; and he who else returns from the ‘fyrd,’ let him be liable in cxx. shillings.

    A. D. 1016-1035. CANUTE. Secular Dooms; cap. 17. And let no one apply to the king unless he may not be entitled to any justice within his hundred; and let the hundred gemot be applied to under penalty of the ‘wite,’ so as it is right to apply to it.

    Cap. 18. And thrice a-year let there be a ‘burh-gemot,’ and twice a ‘shire-gemot’; under penalty of the ‘wite,’ as is right, unless there be need oftener. And let there be present the bishop of the shire and the ealdorman, and there let both expound as well the law of God as the secular law.

    Cap. 19. And let no man take any distress either in the shire or out of the shire, before he has twice demanded his right in the hundred. If at the third time he have no justice, then let him go at the fourth time to the ‘ shire-gemot,’ and let the shire appoint him a fourth term. If that then fail, let him take leave either from hence or thence, that he may seize his own.

    Cap. 20. And we will that every free man be brought into a hundred and into a tithing…. And that every one be brought into a hundred and in ‘borh;’ and let the ‘borh’ hold and lead him to every plea….

    Cap. 21. And we will that every man above xii. years make oath that he will neither be a thief nor cognizant of theft.

    Cap. 70. This then is the alleviation which it is my will to secure to all the people of that which they before this were too much oppressed with. That then is first; that I command all my reeves that they justly provide on my own, and maintain me therewith; and that no man need give them anything as ‘feorm-fultum’ unless he himself be willing. And if any one after that demand a ‘wite,’ let him be liable in his ‘wer’ to the king.

    Cap. 71. And if any one depart this life intestate, be it through his neglect, be it through sudden death; then let not the lord draw more from his property than his lawful heriot. And according to his direction, let the property be distributed very justly to the wife and children and relations, to every one according to the degree that belongs to him.

    Cap. 72. And let the heriots be as it is fitting to the degree. An eorl’s such as thereto belongs, that is, eight horses, four saddled and four unsaddled, and four helmets and four coats of mail, and eight spears and as many shields, and four swords and 200 mancuses of gold. And after that, a king’s thegn’s, of those who are nearest to him; four horses, two saddled and two undo saddled, and two swords and four spears and as many shields, and a helmet and a coat of mail and fifty mancuses of gold. And of the medial thegns, a horse and his trappings and his arms; or his ‘healsfang’ in Wessex; and in Mercia two pounds, and in East Anglia two pounds. And the heriot of a king’s thegn among the Danes, who has his soken, four pounds. And if he have further relation to the king, two horses, one saddled and the other unsaddled, and one sword and two spears and two shields and fifty mancuses of gold; and he who is of less means, two pounds.

    Cap. 81. And I will that every man be entitled to his hunting in wood and in field, on his own possession. And let every one forego my hunting: take notice where I will have it untrespassed on, under penalty of the full ‘wite.’

    Cap. 83. And I will that every man be entitled to ‘grith’ to the gemot and from the gemot, except he be a notorious thief

    THE Charter affords a most important illustration of the policy of Canute with regard to his English subjects, and of the general spirit of his legislation after his rule was universally admitted. It probably belongs to the year 1020, in which the king returned from Denmark, as the earl Thurcyl, to whom it is addressed, was outlawed the following year. The laws of Edgar had been chosen by the Danes and English at Oxford in 1018. The document is published for the first time. (see also the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle : Eleventh Century; the years 1020-1022. Note added by the Avalon Project)

    Canute, the king, greets his archbishops and his suffragan bishops, and Thurcyl the earl, and all his earls and all his people, twelfhynde and twyhynde, clerk and lay, in England, friendly; and I do you to wit that I will be kind lord and unfailing to God’s rights and to right secular law. I took to my remembrance the writing and the word that archbishop Lyfing brought me from Rome from the pope, that I should everywhere maintain the glory of God and put down wrong, and work full peace by the might that God would give me. Now I shrank not from my cost whilst hostility was in hand among you; now I with God’s help took away at my cost that of which men told me that it threatened us with more harm than well pleased us; and then went I myself into Denmark, with the men that went with me, from whence most harm came to you; and that have I with God’s help taken precautions for that never henceforth should enmity come to you from thence whilst ye men rightly hold, and my life lasteth. Now I thank God Almighty for his help and mercy, that I have so allayed the great harms that threatened us, that we need expect Tom thence no harm, but to full peace and to deliverance if need be. Now I will that we all reverently thank God Almighty for the mercy that he has done for our help. Now I beseech my archbishops and all my suffragan bishops that they all be attentive about God’s right, every one in his district which is committed to him; and also my ealdormen I command that they help the bishops to God’s right and to my royal authority and to the behoof of all the people. If any be so bold, clerk or lay, Dane or English, as to go against God’s law and against my royal authority, or against secular law, and be unwilling to make amends, and to alter according to my bishops’ teaching, then I pray Thurcyl my earl, and also command him, that he bend that unrighteous one to right if he can; if he cannot, then will I with the strength of us both that he destroy him in the land or drive him out of the land, be he better, be he worse; and also I command all my reeves, by my friendship and by all that they own, and by their own life, that they everywhere hold my people rightly and judge right judgments by the shire bishops’ witness, and do such mercy therein as the shire bishop thinks right, as a man may attain to; and if any harbour a thief, or neglect the pursuit, be he answerable to me as the thief should, unless he can clear himself towards me with full purgation. And I will that all people, clerk and lay, hold fast Edgar’s law, which all men have chosen and sworn to at Oxford, for that all the bishops say that it right deeply offends God, that a man break oaths or pledges; and likewise they further teach us that we should with all might and main, alike seek, love, and worship the eternal merciful God, and eschew all unrighteousness; that is, slaying of kinsmen, and murder, and perjury, and witchcraft and enchantment, and adultery, and incest; and also we charge in the name of God Almighty, and of all his saints, that no man be so bold as to marry a hallowed nun or mynchen; and if any have done so, be he outlaw towards God, and excommunicated from all Christendom, and answerable to the king in all he has, unless he quickly alter and deeply make amends to God; and further still, we admonish that men keep Sunday’s festival with all their might, and observe it from Saturday’s noon to Monday’s dawning; and no man be so bold that he either go to market or seek any court on that holy day; and all men, poor and rich, seek their church, and ask forgiveness for their sins, and keep earnestly every ordained fast, and earnestly honour the saints that the mass priests shall bid us, that we may altogether through the mercy of the everlasting God and the intercession of his saints come to the joy of the kingdom of heaven, and dwell with Him who liveth and reigneth for ever without end. Amen.

  13. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    Wow. Maybe I am stupid. Since I haven’t studied religion in college, Witan Law as put forth by Yale certainly makes me feel stupid.

    Congratulations, you are now superior.

  14. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |


    No, I just questioned your suggestion that the Frosts should “ESPECIALLY” study “MEDIEVAL HISTORY”. Those were your words, and I just wondered, why “especially” medieval.

    My point is the Middle Ages don’t have anything to do with pagan times, yet curiously, many pagans seem attracted to that period, which I find unfathomable. This was a period of time when witches were universally despised and feared, and anyone thought to be a witch was executed, as was any other person considered a “heretic”-in other words, anyone that practiced any faith considered outside the acceptable mainstream.

    The true Renaissance that happened in Italy, it is true saw a rebirth of learning and appreciation of ancient classical Pagan cultures, though this was limited for the most part to ancient Graeco-Roman culture.

    Even so, Renaissance Fairs seem to resemble more the Dark Ages than they do the actual Rennaissance.

  15. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |

    Gavin, Yvonne-

    I had to give this some thought, and maybe you are right when it comes to ancient Celtic times. However, I think that, when it comes to people being represented by “champions” in lieu of fielded armies, usually when you read of such accounts, these are mythical events.

    David and Goliath are one example. There was no such person as Goliath, and possibly no such person as David. They were legendary “champions” of their respective peoples, yet at the same time, I think they were also actually mythological or allegorical symbols of their respective peoples.

    There has recently been archaeological evidence uncovered to the effect that, in fact, Goliath may have actually been a Philistine god. I have not heard anything yet since the day a couple of years ago when the news was released concerning discovery of his name written on something inside an ancient house in Palestine.

    I think the discovery was hushed up almost as soon as it was realized what they had found, because it would offend too many Christian and Jewish sensibilities.

    And of course, the ancient Philistines were in fact descendants of the ancient peoples of the Minoan civilization, so Goliath may actually be a Hellenic deity as well.

    Still, the point is, when it comes to reading accounts of ancient battles between such champions who fought such definitive battles on behalf of entire peoples, it is easy to read things into these accounts that aren’t really there.

  16. Avatar
    Knowledge Is Power| October 9, 2007 |

    Wow Rhiannon, just goes to show that the common misconceptions about the middle ages aren’t true, looks like they didn’t kill everyone in sight. Since the Middle ages spanned from the 4th to the 15th century, with the Renaissance overlapping those times, it would be understandable that many customs would be the same.

    Pagan Temple, could you please cite your resources for this (read below)? I believe you are referring to what Suzume said on Drew’s blog, I am Suzume, not A.J. or Aimee. I’m the one asking that question.

    The Pagan Temple said…
    “Hey, by the way, A J Drew-

    Guess what ancient culture practiced removal “intacta” from virgins? Not only did they remove the female hymen from virgins, but on the girls wedding days, which took place a few days after the removal of the hymen, the mother of the bride would present the hymen-which was called a “token”-to the grooms family.

    I don’t know whether any dildos were involved, and I suspect not, but at any rate, I thought you might like to know, there is an ancient culture that practiced this.

    Now, I wonder if you can guess Jew-err, I mean who-they were.”

    As to your statement that David and Goliath are a myth, that cannot possibly be proven. Much of the Bible is a HISTORY book with corroborating archeological evidence. So then, it’s your opinion, not a fact that Goliath was a myth. If you can prove that he was a myth, please, enlighten me.

    I’ve been to Renn Faire’s and I just don’t see all that much in common with the Dark Ages like you do. It’s light hearted and fun, colorful clothes, food, creativity etc. I’ve yet to see the Inquisition coming through a faire arresting and killing people.

  17. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |

    Knowledge Is Power-

    1.The first part, about the ancient Jews removing Intacta from girl virgins, I read myself in the Bible. Unfortunately, I don’t remember where in the Bible I read it, only that it was in the Old Testament, in one of the old books of the law. Probably Dueteronomy, though I’m not sure, but it was somewhere in that section.

    Before the wedding, a Jewish mother would present the groom or the grooms family with the removed hymen in a bloody cloth. The removed hymen was referred to as “tokens of virginity”, or something like that.

    2.As for Goliath being a myth, no I can’t prove that, but I was addressing Gavin and Yvone’s statement that ancient Celtic people didn’t engage in warfare en masse, but that they singled out “champions” to fight their battles, and whichever champion won decided the contest.

    Like I said in my reply to them, they might be right insofar as ancient Celtic customs go, I can’t say because I am not an authority on Celtic history, to say the least. I am not even vaguely familiar with it.

    However, it strikes me as similar to the same thing described in the Old Testament, where Goliath was the Philistine champion, and no Hebrew dared stand up to him, until David, a young shepherd boy, took it upon himself to do so, and with God’s blessing killed the giant with a slingshot.

    No, I can’t prove that story is a myth. I also can’t “prove” that Cronus didn’t really swallow his children and then up-chuck them years later, alive and fully grown.

    I can’t prove that it is a myth, but I rather suspect that it is. In fact, I know that it is. The same with the David and Goliath story. Although I can’t prove it, I suspect all the Jewish patriarchs were myths, as well as Noah, Moses, and even David.

    There is very little in the Bible that can be considered authentic history. Most of it is pseudo-history and half-truths at best. The most accurate history is to be found in the prophecy books, actually. That is because they wrote down events that had recently transpired, only they wrote it down in such a way as to make it seem as though they predicted the events, though they did not.

    Yet, because they wanted to pass themselves off as “prophets” the people that wrote these so-called prophetical books of the Bible wrote these events down fairly accurately. Therefore, up to a point they are fairly accurate historical backgrounds. At the same time, even in these cases, a lot of myths are utilized to make some greater point.

    The same with the so-called archaeological evidence. There is none. Sure, there are cities that have been identified as Sodom and Gomorrah, for example. But were Sodom and Gomorrah exactly what the Bible says they were? Nope. The stories about them were myths.

    And like I said, the minute somebody does discover archaeological evidence of some Bibleical person or place, they sweep it under the rug if it contradicts the Bible too much.

    That’s why most people don’t know that the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah have in fact been found. They’ve been found, but no one advertises the fact, because of the simple fact that the archaeological evidence, far from authenticating the Bible, actually disproves the Bible to a profound extent.

    3.Finally, as to the Ren fairs. I don’t mind people going to Ren Fairs. Whatever floats your boat. I might enjoy going to one myself. What I wouldn’t do, what I would never do under any circumstance, is tell myself or even pretend that they have anything to do with pagan times or pagan beliefs, because they don’t.

    By the time the Middle Ages came about, the pagan times and culture were already a thing of the past. By the time the Middle Ages were half way through, you are talking about pagan times being centuries in the past. There’s just no “there” there, when it comes to a connection between paganism and the Middle Ages, or the Dark Ages.

    The closest correlation you can come up with legitimately is that the Middle or Dark Ages were a period of time when people were burned at the stake or otherwise executed on suspicion of witchcraft.

    Otherwise, these were backwards, superstitious Christians. There were no pagans selling incense or herbal tea blends and reading fortunes with tarot cards or scrying in crystal balls.

    If a Ren Fair enthusiast of today were to be caught in a time warp and find him or herself in the middle of a Dark Ages gathering of some sort, I suspect they wouldn’t have to say much to find themselves in a good lot of trouble.

    Shouting out something like “Blessed be the Great Goddess” would probably get you burnt at the stake real quick.

  18. Avatar
    sapphoq| October 9, 2007 |

    Hello everyone,

    Here is what I do not understand:
    Why is all of this stuff about a book coming up NOW?

    The book wasn’t published yesterday.


    Having said that, I will now say this: the Frosts have a right to write whatever material they write in whatever context they write it just like any other writer; the publisher has a right to include, exclude or ask for a rewrite of any part of the book just like any other publisher; and people have a right to buy a book or not buy it.

    The risk we run in a free society that has freedom of speech is that we will run into material that we may not personally agree with or like or understand.

    While I do not understand the whys and wherefores of the material presented and thus may find it offensive because of my own individual viewpoints, experiences, and misunderstandings and I have exercised my right to say so…

    I don’t get to dictate to others what I think they ought to do.

    Maybe we can all allow the courts and the lawyers to do their thing and just get on with it, shall we?


  19. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    Hey, all – I know this has nothing to do with this current discussion, but I just ran across this. Found it curious because my understanding was that Mr. Drew forced to withdraw an article by Bronwyn (that would be Jo to the rest of the world) that she had done for them.

    So how did that happen? Maybe we need to revisit some verifications from Mr. Drew?

    and for Sapphoq, yes, this whole issue has been attacked before. You are completely correct in questioning that fact, and nothing came from it then. Again, I am here for anyone to ask. I have known the Frosts since I was six years old, and I am female.

  20. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    Sorry, bad link.

  21. Avatar
    sapphoq| October 9, 2007 |

    I would like to publicly thank
    the blogger of

    because it was specifically in reading through that blog that I began to question things.

    I have revamped my own rather lengthy piece over on radical to include links to the corrected info I have found out since my first comment here several weeks ago.

    As far as “protected speech” and “unprotected speech” I am not a lawyer. I think though that it is a court of law that gets to determine whether or not any given material is “obscene,” “pornographic,” “protected,” “non-protected.”

    Thus I will assume First Amendment Protection for books by all authors until a court makes an official decision.

    As for the other issues dealing with the Frosts’ specific complaints about defamation of their character made by AJ Drew, I refer folks to

    where those issues are addressed.

    spike q.

  22. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |


    From his own blog titled

    ADF Iparwnting and the Frosts

    Victory! The following is a letter to concerning an article written by Laura Paul. The article contained quotes by Jo Frost which promoted The Church and School of Wicca to parents and children. The link to that article can be found in the letter, however that article can no longer be found. It seems has responded to my concern by pulling all support for The Church and School of Wicca.

    Christianity is the majority religion in the United States of America. So, statisticly speaking it is a good bet that the folk who run are predominantly Christian as they are based in the United States of America. It seems they took one look at the contents of Gavin and Yvonne Frost’s book and decided they wanted nothing to do with the Church and School of Wicca

    now Aj, can you explain how Fenix and myself have the link to a story involving Bronwyn Frost on Thought they didnt Post itbecause of your intervention

  23. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    Just a thought to ponder

    If Aj Drew would lie about getting Bronwyns article removed from Iparenting, doesnt it stand to reason that he could be lying about other things concerning his actions against the Frosts

  24. Avatar
    wushih| October 9, 2007 |

    Mr. Shadowhawk,

    I could be wrong but I don’t think Mr. Drew is purposely lying about anything. However, I do suspect that he is delusional.

  25. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |


    He is unreasonable, whether or not he is purposely lying. And, he is joined by a cadre of aiders and abettors, and worse, enablers.

    And some of them-not all of them, mind you, but some of them-are in fact outright liars, and in some cases pricks-pretentious pricks at that.

    I guess it would be appropriate that they are so concerned about dildos, as that would be a good description of their personality profiles.

  26. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    Pt personally i dont think AJ is brain damaged.I sincerely believe he is a calculating hate filled individual. At first i asked why he would be this way. Then i decided in the scheme of things it didnt really matter, But seeing these lies coming out does strengthen my resolve. I would feel sorry for him, but not till after this whole mess is over with. Aj and his buddy Archaeus once deserved the benefit of the doubt, But right now i dont, all they garner from me is disdain and contempt

  27. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |


    I have a good idea what AJ Drew’s angle is, what is pushing him and why. I think you probably have a pretty good idea yourself, and probably other people do as well. It’s that elephant in the room I think we’ve all been tap dancing around, but it is pretty obvious to me.

    As for Archaeus, his latest angle is he was supposedly molested by a family member, and later a neighborhood adult, so this gives him the right to pontificate on these matters. Of course, a little thing like proof would be nice, but you know these people-who the hell needs proof as long as you have a chance to play the victim card, especially if you think you can belittle or denigrate anybody that doesn’t agree with you.

  28. Avatar
    Archaeus| October 9, 2007 |

    This was sent to me tonight through my YOUTUBE account by ShadowHawk.

    ShadowHawk says: your full of shit
    Just watched your Good Witches Bible pt 1. First you have an unhealthy hatred toward Wiccans, And it seems your blaming the Frosts for your childhood problems. And im not some newbie to paganism, i have been a coven witch and druid since 1993. And since age matters so much to you im 41 so you got me only by 4 years. Big fucking deal. You seem to cry and whine alot Get over it, you are an adult , act like it instead of crying like a little girl. Instead of blaming the Frosts who you evidently do not know, get off your ass and do something condtructive. Mentor a kid thru your local Big Brother/ Big Sister program.Do something worthwhile instead of ranting like an ass online where nobody believes or gives a shit that your a FAM TRAD WITCH, like that really fucking makes you better than anyone else. Just a heads up, your buddy Aj Drew has been caught in a lie. Wonder how long before we catch you in a lie.. And here pretty soon im going to post a vlog video to shed some light on the bullshit you and others are putting out to the pagan community..Look for it


    In time you will prove yourself a far greater liability to the Frosts and the community of which your from.

    If the Frosts and everyone else were truly wise they would begin distancing themselves from you now while damage control remains negligible.

    But I’m sure none will listen and thus many will pay for the stupidity of one obnoxious nobody.

    So mote It Be.

  29. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |


    Do us all a favor. Go suck on some bubble gum and blow it out your ass. Better yet, do it in reverse.

  30. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    Who the Fuck are you , Your a WANNA BE FAM TRAD WITCH, get over your self.Since the age of 8 huh. I say your fucking ate up in the head.. Like i say i will be posting a VIDEO response to your bullshit tirade on YoutUbe.. You see your self as some wise fucking Witch an you think you know better than everybody else
    So now run your mouth some more.. What.. Your a crybaby bitchboy Witch who wont play nice with Wiccans, well you know they could probably give a shit less about you as well. And your friends would do well to get you into therapy because you sure do need it

  31. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    Just had to chuckle,poot Archaeus just Forbidden 404d me barring me from his webpage.Cant handle the truth .lmao.. Really i am a nice guy, but when im placed on a blogroll as a pedophile which this guy put my blog Pagan Perspectives on makes me think.. Being Tactful is not an option i want to pursue. And since hes posting lies on Youtube.Im going meet him in that arena and put some reality out there.Maybe it will wake Mr Archaeus up.

  32. Avatar
    Archaeus| October 9, 2007 |

    How interesting when two such pathetic excuses as Pagan Temple and Shadowhawk demonstrate their true inner nature. Oh how they must intimidate their Pagan contemporaries as no one wants to become their next victim while everyone else turns away rolling their eyes.

    Why it becomes rather apparent how you two are bully’s within the Wiccan community who join together like pack dogs attempting to tire and drag down your intended prey.

    Honestly the Frosts choice of such belligerent protective advocates say far more about them than any mere book chapter on preparing adolescent children for ritual sex with adults.

    Do your worst gentlemen and promote your message of rage and contempt to the world at large.

    Fill the mind heart and soul of every generational Witch Wiccan Druid and whoever else may listen to your message until no more remain unknowing of your intent and purpose.

    Probe every source and peer within every nook and cranny for every bit of dirt which you can distort in further fulfilling your personal agenda of maliciousness and pure destruction.

    For in the end you will only serve that which you were intended.

    Thus far you two have served well.

  33. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |

    You’re still running from that man with the bubble gum, Archaeus, and you don’t even know it. You’ve been running from him all your life, and you’re still running from him. And you’ll keep on running from him.

    Unfortunately, in the process of thinking you are running away from him, you keep right on running to him, don’t you, Archaeus?

    Keep on running, little boy.

    Don’t stop.

    Never look back.

    Keep on running, you little, little man.

  34. Avatar
    Archaeus| October 9, 2007 |

    You fight rather dirty don’t you Pagan Temple.

    Utilizing whatever you believe to be an individuals greatest weakness against them.

    Its says very little of you as a humane individual and yet speaks volumes as to the inner maliciousness and depraved indifference you feel so contemptuously against those who displease you.

    In essence you possess a passive aggressive personality which lately finds it difficult to conceal its emotional abnormalities.

    Perhaps it is you who should never look back for such individuals with your condition are known for leaving behind numerous failures and shattered lives.

  35. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    Poor Archaeus, has to rant on youtube, Pack dog wiccans eh, who pissed in your corn flakes. You call us pathetic, but we are not the ones on a video blogging site crying and lying the way you are. And you better bet we are gonna stir the dust and turn on the lights, its when you do that all the hidden bullshit can be seen for what it is, all the rats in the corner get a brief chance to scurry back into the darkness. Is that rat you Archaeus.. I think you are. Were turning the lights on Archaeus, and theres not much you can do. You can cry and rant and scream, They arent fair , there picking on me, they see thru my lies about the Frosts, they see im a poser and a fake. Yes Archaeus its true, I am exposing you as the fraud you are
    Deal With It

  36. Avatar
    The Voice of Reason| October 9, 2007 |

    The Pagan Temple said…

    Do us all a favor. Go suck on some bubble gum and blow it out your ass. Better yet, do it in reverse.

    Pagan Temple, stop it! I’m STILL trying to get out of the floor from laughing so damned hard it hurts and get that mental image out of my head!

    Hmm Archaeus,

    I’m not real sure because I turned your pitiful video off in mid-whine, but me thinks YOU are the one who made yourself public and therefore open to commentary. What did you expect from this audience? You’re in the wrong place if you’re trying to generate sympahty for yourself.

    They say if you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen, but sweetie this isn’t even the kitchen, it’s the pressure cooker! Realistically, you’re not the first person to be “preyed upon”. Please consider this.

    When atrocities are heaped upon humans, there are marked behaviors developed by the victim which grow out the actual instance(s).

    Let’s consider a few of these behaviors…..

    One, the victim chooses to grow and move past the anger, hurt, pain and learns those things make him/her a stronger and better person. This is the most desireable type of reaction because people who adopt this behavior want help and as such healing can take place in their lives.

    Two. The Victim’s anger becomes his/her center of focus and the anger is taken out on him/herself. Or is directed toward others whom the victim either feels caused their suffering or indirectly contributed to it. In your case, Wiccans.

    Three. The Victim likes being a victim. He/she enjoys the pity and warm wishes heaped upon him/her by well wishers. So the Victim builds upon his/her story, refining it and making it almost “holy” because it brings him/her so much happiness. And then like the perfect bit actor, plays it far and wide to all that will listen. When their audience responds with the much needed sympathy and pity, the victims needs are met and he/she is fulfilled. (Which is what me thinks your were trying to generate when you became the lead actor in your “movie”.)

    Now remember, I’m basing this on YOUR comments and actions, not something anyone else said or did. So don’t blame me or Pagan Temple or Shadowhawk or god forbid, Drew…he’s got enough problems becasue the outcome was not what you expected.

    Archaeus, it’s just that you’re plight is no worse, maybe even not as bad as others and we’ve heard the whining before. There are many fantastic therapists out there who specialize in dealing with your particular plight and will gladly help you find your way back to your “happy” place.

    But the decision has to be yours, if you want to continue to whine and subject yourself to the arrows and rocks of others, go right ahead. I just suggest you find a more sympathetic audience. But if you truly want to be a better, stronger person, seek help.

    Love and light,


  37. Avatar
    Archaeus| October 9, 2007 |

    People in defense of Wicca claim it a faith filled with perfect love and perfect trust.

    Wicca has proven itself a spiritual malignancy which spreads by having adopted the same brutal mentality as Adolph Hitler’s Third Reight.

    And like Hitler, Wicca seeks the harvest of young children to better promote its agenda.

    You suggest I seek a more sympathetic audience and yet all of you gleefully display a far darker and evil side which only further exemplifies the many rumors spreading about Wicca as true.

    But people should come to realize that when such depraved indifference and maliciousness becomes so evident in the behavior of others that it is not a demonstration of strength and superiority but rather desperation and weakness as logic is replaced by emotional response.

    Sadly, each of your individual expressions perfectly match characteristically with those behaviors evident within dysfunctional family environments. Where now such behavior seeks forced acceptance through defending such noble causes as Wicca or the Frosts philosophies on preparing adolescent aged children for ritual sex activity within an adult coven environment.

    In essence it is not “I” who is victim but rather those who may follow “you” into a never ending cycle of perpetuating dysfunctional behavior.

    Clinical psychiatry generally attempts to convince such people to break the cycle of abuse.

    But most never do and thus the victimization continues in effecting generation after generation.

  38. Avatar
    Shak El| October 9, 2007 |

    Just for the record (as I don’t support AJ Drew) the custom of showing the bloddy sheets of a virgin occured after the marriage night and not before. This is still a custom in the Middle East today which fuels a “re-virginization” industry to “restore” the hymen for the wedding night for women who have not waited for sex until marriage. Several European countries have recently banned the practice.

  39. Avatar
    wushih| October 9, 2007 |

    Archaeus says: Clinical psychiatry urges people not to pass on the victimization to later generations but most people cannot stop and victimization continues to be passed on.

    I disagree. I know several people who were sexually, emotionally and physically abused as children and teens who have made the monumental effort not to pass it on to their children and grandchildren.

    I choose not to catalog the ugly things that happened to a little girl (and teen) because I am not full of self pity. I stopped the cycle and I can see my healthy kids and grandkids who are unafraid.

    I choose not to lash out in anger because it’s just a waste of time and energy that can be directed toward more positive stuff.

    There was a time in my life when I wept and raged and cried out, “How could they DO that to a little girl?” And then I got over it. Much better now.

    You say Wicca is a spiritual malignancy. Oh, please. Listen to yourself. Do you WANT people to argue with you or feel sorry for you. It reminds me of something I used to say, “You don’t have to feel sorry for me. I’m doing a great job all by myself.”

  40. Avatar
    Archaeus| October 9, 2007 |

    These numerous attempts at diverting peoples focus upon my supposed psychological inadequacies instead of those previously exhibited by supporters of the Frost is admirable but ultimately futile.

    I leave you all now to pontificate amongst yourselves.

    Blessed Be.

  41. Avatar
    The Voice of Reason| October 9, 2007 |

    Yes Wushih,

    He wants you to argue with him and “make over him”. He’s the litte boy with the “boo boo” who wants Grandma or Mommy to give him a cookie and pat him on the head for whining.

    Any attention you heap on him is fine because it’s just that, “attention”. He has what he so urgently needs….our focus.

    So, let the little boy sit in the corner and scream and throw his fit.

    And as most of us know my recommended course of action has nothing to do with what he claims to be the “dark side of Wicca”…it is the accepted method of behavior modification for a child who is making poor choices, also known as “time out”.

    Love and light,


  42. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    Archeus, I’m not Wiccan. Other people that leave messages on here are not Wiccan. Wushih, Shadowhawk, even Shak El – not Wiccan. Some of us may have started on the Wiccan path, but being inquisitive and curious, we have all moved on.

    For me personally, Wicca has shortcomings. But I would think it unethical to refer to it as “malignant.” I have never felt controlled, led, manipulated or anything else you’d like to suggest.

    Maybe in your area you’ve got some bad people claiming Wicca as their religion and using it to do just as you have suggested. I’ve seen people like that myself – using their ideas of spirituality to entice women to sleep with them. But in every setting I’ve ever been in, the recruiting of children, the exploitation of children, even the inclusion of children in some ritual settings is not allowed. Those are facts. When a criminal is found, they are turned over to the police.

    The idea of ANY Pagans promoting or allowing abuse of children is, quite frankly, unfathomable. If you want to take issue with three pages out of one book, fine. It’s a free country. But do not make the mistake of assuming all Wiccans or Pagans are involved with some secretive scheme to recruit children for sex slaves. Sounds like a Christian extremist looking to scare the masses into another Witch hunt.

    On a side note, why block access to your website? If you have a message to share, then share it. Keeping secrets sets a bad precedent.

  43. Avatar
    Archaeus| October 9, 2007 |

    I’m sorry deb if the truth hurts.

    Evidently for a women your rather dominate and insulting demeanor reveals you of leaning more towards having developed an acquired “taste” for ritual Sapphic behavior.

    Nothing against either gay or lesbians mind you where most are far more respectful of people than many heterosexuals.

    Perhaps you might wish to consider…

  44. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |

    I find it most odd that Archaeus would recommend to Deb that she should experiment with the homosexual lifestyle.

    After all, to hear him tell it now,it would seem as though his own past plunge into gay sex seems to have left quite a bad taste in his mouth.

  45. Avatar
    ajdrew| October 9, 2007 |

    Uh, guys check my blog entry and you will the URL I provided at is:

    I found the article, wrote to them concerning the Frosts book and the lie mentioned in my blog, and they took it down. As I provided the link to where it was, how is it people are now saying I lied because the article exists at a different location.

    Yep, is owned by and they do have the original article. But that does not negate the fact that I said removed the article that I wrote them about from the location I wrote to them about.

    Thank you for pointing out the other url. Please consider watching it for a wee bit because I am willing to bet it will disappear soon as well.

    For anyone else wanting to note my factual blog statement, along with the provided url, please visit my blog at:

    Note that I provided the url to’s article, and note how Fenix and Shadowhawk are now misleading you.

    So Fenix and Shadowhawk, how do I explain it? Uh, it is not on just as I said it was not. Why? Because they removed it. It is however, on a different site they own but will probably be off of that site as well.

    The book with what experts on the subject now tell me contains pedophilic instructions, is still for sale by the Frosts, it still has the content, the small disclaimer was added in the year 2000 edition, and folk are simply lying to you about it.

    Buy the book today from the Frosts web site. Discover the truth about who you are supporting. Don’t take my word for it. Read it your self.

    Chapter IV

    “When a child develops to a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present, he can become a full member of the coven.”

    Note the use of the word “child”. As I understand this statement we are speaking about prepubescent / onset of puberty. Perhaps the age of 10.

    “The parents relinquish the spiritual guidance of the children to the coven, and warn them that temporal authority will also soon be outside the family. “

    Note that according to this statement, it seems what follows would have been led by Gavin and Yvonne Frost as the Heads of their Coven.

    “It is hoped by Wicca that the first full sexual experience will take place in the plesant[SIC] surroundings of the coven and that the spiritual as well as the physical aspects of the experience will lead the child to a complete life. ”

    Note: Note the use of the word “child” in this sentence. Note also that this sentence appears in the same discussion as the reference to the age being the onset of puberty. Obviously, we are speaking of children well under legal age and apparently about 10 years of age.

    “The physical attributes of male and female virginity are destroyed at the youngest possible age, either by the mother or by a doctor. In the female case, the hymen is painlessly broken surgically. In the male case, the mother makes absolutely sure that the foreskin can be drawn fully back by cutting the underside attachment membrane.”

    Note: I did not know that home genital surgery was part the Wiccan religion.

    “At the last sabbat or eshbat before the initiation, the female novice is given the sacred phallus and the instruction sheet in Table 5 so that she can learn to insert and remove the phallus quickly and comfortably. She is also taught how she should lie and what she should do during the initiation ceremony. ”

    Note: There are two phalluses. One large, one small. There are instructions for making them using wood dowels, nylon cord, and wax. The object of this exercise appears to be to stretch the virgin vagina to make it ready for coitus. Remember, as we discussed earlier we might be speaking about a 10 year old girl.

    Table Five contains the following instructions

    “You have been entrusted with two phali[SIC]; these are in your care until your initiation. We would like you to be initiated at the next coven meeting, which will take place on …. This means that, excluding your menstruation time, you have three weeks to prepare your muscles for introitus. Your father or your sponsor will help you if you have any difficulties or pain. You may have to delay your initiation, but there is plenty of time and no need to hurry. These are important development phases. Relax and take your time. You have no hymen; there is no restriction except the vaginal muscles.”

    Note: As I understand this, a 10 year old girls father should help her with the home made phalli? In the state of Ohio, this is rape. In any state, this is obscene.

    “After your evening discussion and meditation, and before you go to bed, take the smaller phallus and smear it with lubricating jelly. Either lie on your back with your knees up and legs slightly apart, or stand up and bend your knees. Spread the lips of the vagina and gently insert the phallus. Remember it must point toward the back, not up inside you. Push the phallus in until the vaginal entrance muscles close around the core. Wear it and the larger phallus in accordance with the following table, except during menstruation.”

    Note: The table provides the time and schedule to use the two devices of differing sizes.

    “The final three days before the initiation are a time of fasting. ”

    Note: The importance of fasting will become evident later.

    “Throughout the fast the novices are given a demonstration of introitus by a couple selected by the coven. “

    Note: As I understand this passage, this states that a live sex show should be given to children as early as the age of 10 years of age.

    “The novice makes her own decision on contraception or lack of it.”

    Note: As I understand this statement, children the age of 10 years old should make decisions on the use or lack of use of birth control prior to having sex.

    “The flamenca gives the novice a full glass of mead.”

    Note: While I am not a doctor, I believe the result of having a child or most adults fast for three days and then drink a “full glass” of a high carbohydrate alcoholic beverage would be near instant intoxication.

    “Bring back the fruits of your sponsor’s body”

    Note: Although the instruction is not specifically to go have sex, with the wording of the preparation, this instruction is not hidden at this point. So at this point, we might be speaking of a 10 year old girl, removed from her parents care, raped by her father with a series of home made dildos, fasting for three days, intoxicated on mead, and told to go have sex with her sponsor. In the case of a male child, skip the dildo and include genital surgery.

    “Does the novice now understand the meaning of life?”

    “Do you still wish to be a member of this coven?”

    Note: Some final highlights remember we are obviously talking about “children” and seem to be talking about children as early as the age of 10 years old.

    “Do you have the fruits of your body (sponsors body)?”

    “I will use my sex for good;”

    “She symbolically whips him with his own whip. He kisses her foot, she helps him to rise. He points to his ankh (symbol of the God’s authority) at her. She falls to the ground. He symbolically whips her. She kisses his foot; he helps her to rise. “

    “The symbology [SIC] of the meek overcoming the strong and the godhead overcoming all, even the flamenca, is easy to understand, but has been the cause of many attacks by the establishment, who freely change “foot” to “backside”.

    Note: Interesting use of the word “establishment”. When combined with the pedophilia, I find this use of the word alarmingly similar to other religious organizations, which have turned my stomach.

    In the edition published in 1999 (sometimes called the 2000 edition), there is a disclaimer to chapter 4 which states that “formal” initiations should not take place into a coven which practices the great rite until someone is 18. An explination is given which states that fathers are being sued for giving their childrens baths. However, another chapter rather clearly makes that disclaimer to chapter 4 seem insincere at best:

    Chapter VII – Perils and Precautions – All quotes and page numbers are from the 1972 edition of The Witches Bible.

    “At the end of this chapter you will find an additional section covering the problems you may encounter with the local temporal and civil authorities. Precautions and cures for these ills do not fall within the scope of the present book, but on your getting a good lawyer”.

    Section title “Temporal Authorities and Law” – page 181 at the end of the chapter VII.

    “First and foremost, check your local laws so that if you have to bend or break any of them, at least you’ll know the risks you run. The following should be checked.”

    “Carnal Knowledge

    The daughter of a local Wiccan couple wishes to join the coven. She is sixteen. May she join? The answer in most states is that when she is a member, all of the men of the coven could be jailed; no amount of formal releases properly signed will help. So if she wishes to join, all the male members of the coven must sign an agreement absolving the other members from responsibility.”

    Why do the authors seem to think only the men could be jailed over this? Why not the female members as well? The only thing I can come up with is that elsewhere the Frosts explain how homosexuality in their religion is not permitted. As best I can figure, the signed agreement is thought to absolve the female members of the coven for the crimes of the men who will be having sex with her. Note that “all male members” must sign the thing. Not just some or the one who will sexually initiate her. No no, all men must sign it.

    Page 189 – Forming and Running a Coven

    Speaking about things that potential coven members must be told prior to joining, the Frosts list:

    “Their bodies will be used in ceremonies that
    a. sap the vital power,
    b. are dangerous,
    c. require sex with assigned partners.

    Ok, the above is just about sick enough to illustrate my point that Gavin and Yvonne Frost knew exactly what they had instructed. Sure, in this situation they are speaking about a hypothetical 16 year old, but elsewhere they are clear that the average age of a coven member in a coven that is 5 years old is 15 years of age. For there to be a 15 year old in that coven, should this 16 year old join there would have to be a 14 year old. If there were an elder in the coven, well do the math. Children would have to be much, much younger than the average of 15 now wouldn’t they?

    But there are other quotes from earlier in the book, which might cause one to think that the illness runs even deeper. Note that above, they did say the child was the “daughter” of a Wiccan couple. In chapter IV we see other instructions concerning Wiccan children which might be related to the above quote.

    Chapter IV

    “The parents relinquish the spiritual guidance of the children to the coven, and warn them that temporal authority will also soon be outside the family. “

    Oh, but it gets even worse.

    Pregnancy – Page 181

    “Towards the end of their term, though, when they find they are unable to participate fully in coven activities and are worried about the future, they sometimes panic and sue for child support. Therefor, all single women joining the coven must sign a release.”

    So as I understand this instruction, it is sometimes necessary to bend or break the law if you want to practice the Frosts Wicca. Sex with children is illegal, so when you go around breaking the law you should make sure the women folk are protected from charges of child molestation and rape and you should be equally sure that the women joining the coven (including the children evidently) sign a release protecting the men folk from child support.

  46. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    “So Fenix and Shadowhawk, how do I explain it? Uh, it is not on just as I said it was not. Why? Because they removed it. It is however, on a different site they own but will probably be off of that site as well.”

    Wow, how irresponsible of to allow an article to appear on a site with their logo all over it. Wow, how stupid of them to not notice that. How wise you must be to continue spreading harmful lies to Christian-oriented websites, so they’ll be sure to believe we really are all just a bunch of evil, devil-worshipping hedonists with no ethic or morals.

    What is the basis of your campaign now? To get the pages removed? To have the Frosts brought up on charges? To “save” all the people you seem to think have been abused because of the Frosts? Where are all these people? I don’t know any. Do you? What is your mission?

    I find it disturbing that you want to continue to publish these passages everywhere possible. It’s almost as if you want to discredit the whole of Paganism, not just the Frosts. It seems there are many different ways this could have been handled, but it’s not nearly as much fun as making as much noise as possible so everyone will pay attention to you. Is there a personal issue here? I really feel like I’m not getting the whole story.

  47. Avatar
    E_Anderson| October 9, 2007 |

    Fenix, Mr. Drew’s long campaign against the Frosts is an obsession, and his need to post everywhere, no matter the results, is quite likely a compulsion. He’s like the guy who attacked President Ford in order to attract Jody Foster.

    This has nothing to do with the Frosts. It’s about Mr. Drew’s mental diseases. Today, people post signs of their diseases all over the internet thinking they’re having an effect on others.

    Such people may also think that if any people dispute them (in this case pointing out that he has never produced even one person who has been harmed as a direct result of the Frost’s writing) that they are out to get them. This is a sign of another mental disease, paranoia.

    It is quite possible that Mr. Drew–who has already switched his fixation on Ray Buckland to the Frosts–will eventually switch his obsession to someone or something else, such as a family member. Therefore, we should all hope that Mr. Drew gets the proper psychological care he needs as soon as possible before he becomes a danger to his family or himself.

  48. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    Victory! The following is a letter to concerning an article written by Laura Paul. The article contained quotes by Jo Frost which promoted The Church and School of Wicca to parents and children. The link to that article can be found in the letter, however that article can no longer be found. It seems has responded to my concern by pulling all support for The Church and School of Wicca.

    Christianity is the majority religion in the United States of America. So, statisticly speaking it is a good bet that the folk who run are predominantly Christian as they are based in the United States of America. It seems they took one look at the contents of Gavin and Yvonne Frost’s book and decided they wanted nothing to do with the Church and School of Wicca

    Look at the last sentence in each paragraph AJ.. You said that Because they were CHRISTIAN and because of your intervention that they RESPONDED to YOUR concerns pulling ALL support for the Curch and School of Wicca

    Yet we have Bronwyns article in our posession. So Spin your words some more Aj

  49. Avatar
    wushih| October 9, 2007 |

    e_anderson, I think you are right about Mr. Drew and mental illness and I also wonder if his family is safe from his obsessions. Let’s see, what’s he got there…a wife and some little kids. Oh, dear.

    Mr. Drew, you ramble on and on and on. You are sooo boring.

    Rhiannon, my college majors were literature and psychology. Now, I could sit down and type out the entire English translation of Beowulf and I could also appear to be superior but I have a life and lots of things to do.

    Archaeus, I thought you were leaving us to pontificate among ourselves. Are you still here?


  50. Avatar
    ajdrew| October 9, 2007 |

    Fenix – I did not say it was irresponsible. I said that I provided the url and they removed it. So your reply to my illustrating that you have lied about my character is to essentially say; na na bo bo on you. Well, that was witty.

    Fenix asked: “What is the basis of your campaign now?”

    Same campaign as ever. To continue to inform people of the factual quotes from that book, what the Frosts have promoted, and what they continue to promote. In the very near future, it may well be national news. You see, some pagan folk are rapists and child molesters and if we continue to ignore the clear and obvious silence about such things in our community, we remain guilty of condoning such behavior with our silence.

    The book is a disguesting example of what we are willing to tolerate. Thus, I will continue to demonstrate my intolerance for it. Same game plan as always.

    The whole of the story you are not getting is that my goal is to bring light to this, not cover it up. I want awareness. I want my community to speak up and say we will not tolerate instructions that include the sexual initiation of children as part of our religion. I want people to know what the Frosts have written.

    In short, I would like the truth to be known and am sorry you and a few others do not feel the same.

    Mr. Anderson said: “This has nothing to do with the Frosts. It’s about Mr. Drew’s mental diseases.”

    He is right in that this has nothing to do with the Frosts. If he feels a dedication to causing a desired change in the consciousness of my community is a mental disease, then he is also right that I am so afflicted. I feel much differently. I feel that silence is the sickness and discussion is the cure.

    Pedophilia and the abuse of children exists in the greater community. Contrary to what many in the pagan community would like to believe, we are not exempt from these social disorders. Unlike the greater community and more like the Catholic Church prior to its scandal, we do not seem to want to discuss the problem. Instead, as Fenix has expressed, we tend to want to make sure nobody knows about the problems in our community, we tend to want to conduct ourselves like the Catholic Church, cover it up, not speak about it, move on.

    Strangely enough, we then run off at the mouth about the problems that have faced the Catholic Church and how their leaders dealt with it.

    Concerning Dr. Buckland, yep I had an issue with his support of the Frosts. I caused him to notice my distaste for his support and we created dialog. Within that dialog, he discovered that he had been lied to as have many here. The material contained in chapter 4 had not been removed as he had been told it was. He immediately withdrew the endorsement he was considering for one of the Frost’s new book and has now been very, very clear that he strongly opposes the content of chapter 4 and the Frost’s refusal to remove it.

    Everyone – So now I am confused. Recently someone said this was some new obsession of mine, maybe the last year. Now the story is that I have been obsessed with this for years. Which one is it?

    In the end, it is all very simple. I oppose the book and have been doing so for years. No hidden agenda. No evil plot. I just do not like the idea that my religion was founded in pedophilia and such seems to be the message that the Frosts are declaring by saying the instructions of chapter 4 were the initial teachings of the Church and School of Wicca and that the Church and School of Wicca / The Frosts founded the Wiccan religion.

  51. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    Promote what you will in this matter Aj but as long as im involved it will be my duty and priviledge to reinforce the idea of AJ DREW LIAR AND PAGAN PARIAH,so many people see thru your games Aj.People are laughing at you, because they know the truth, and you are a deluded man who wouldnt know truth if it bit your ass. So it looks like we both have our work cut out for ourselves.

  52. Avatar
    Carol Maltby| October 9, 2007 |

    The article “Teen Witch” by Laura Paul remains on, in their section on parenting teens.

    But it has been rewritten to remove any mention of the Frosts.

    Google cache:

    Current version:

  53. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    It’s not exactly the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. They don’t have floating candles or a ceiling that opens to the sky, although, Jo Frost, the chief administrator of the Church and School of Wicca in Hinton, W. Va., says rain occasionally leaks through a few holes in the roof.

    Frost says teenagers can take their witchcraft correspondence courses only with parental permission. She faces many combative parents who don’t understand their teenager’s interest in witchcraft.

    Right here Carol is the First 2 paragraphs it mentions the Church and School of Wicca, so not ALL mention of the Frosts had been removed..Learn to read

  54. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    I don’t believe anyone is attempting to cover anything up. I’m well aware there are sick and degenerate people within Paganism. Pretty sure I’ve stated as much. It would be refreshing if all points were considered when replying to my posts.

    Now I’m confused – the only person I’ve seen stating you’ve been obsessed with this for years is you.

  55. Avatar
    Carol Maltby| October 9, 2007 |

    Perhaps you need to clear your cache, Shadowhawk?

    The Teen Witch article currently at mentions only Jamie Wood.

    And of course while the original article says that Jo Frost told them teenagers can take their witchcraft correspondence courses only with parental permission, it is directly contradicted by the material on the Church and School of Wicca website, where minors without parental permission are told they must pay a $100 non-refundable down payment.

  56. Avatar
    E_Anderson| October 9, 2007 |

    Sigh, I feel very sorry for Mr. Drew, but it a sign of HIS illness. As is typical of many mentally ill people, he externalizes it and condemns his community for not participating in his compulsions and obsessions.

    Note the attempt to change my point from this being about what could be HIS mental disease to it being the community’s mental disease. He cannot conceive that he is wrong, so he has to claim that everyone else is wrong–that’s a sign of paranoia.

    I know of nobody in the Pagan community who claims there there is not the possibility of pedophilia here. Perhaps Mr. Drew could give a list of ten names of people who have publicly stated it cannot and does not exist within the Pagan community. I say that knowing that Mr. Drew is incapable of producing such a list because it doesn’t exist. I also say that so that people will see that Mr. Drew will ignore or downplay the challenge. He has to do this because it is an attack not on him, but on his paranoia and obsessive compulsions.

    You claim you caused Mr. Buckland to “notice” your complaints. That’s true–just as people noticed the complaints of terrorists throughout time. Instead of acting like a sane, adult, human, you attacked him in writing a book. He didn’t know about your complaint, but you attacked him. You were too much of a coward to simply contact him and talk with him in person.

    By the way, have you demanded that Career Books remove all of your complaints against Mr. Buckland? You’re sure fast to demand the censoring of other books, but not your own.

    Why not? Because people who are paranoid feel they are justified to do anything while everyone else is wrong.

    Eventually, such paranoia may well shift to your own family and friends. I honestly hope that you get the appropriate medical care before you harm them.

  57. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    Correcting Misrepresentations
    1. A Public Announcement Regarding Pagan Nation and The Real Witches Ball
    Posted July 10, 2007

    Due to what I regard as an intentional misrepresentation, being fostered by author A.J Drew, regarding my reasons for withdrawing from his event, I am posting the actual reasons here.

    The following is a joint statement from several of the authors (myself included) who, with two additional authors, collectively withdrew from Mr. Drew’s event.

    We, the undersigned, were invited to the Real Witches Ball (RWB), and gratefully accepted. We hoped our participation would add to the event and encourage greater community attendance and involvement. Due to misinformation being spread regarding our withdrawal from the event, we feel compelled to make the following statement:

    Recently, several months after our acceptance, we learned a ritual had been added to the event. We were not informed of the ritual prior to our acceptance of the invitation, nor did representatives of the RWB inform us of this change. We learned of it from outside sources.

    Had we known that the RWB would focus (as indicated by the importance placed on it on the RWB website) on a political protest in the form of a negative ritual wherein living people are sacrificed in effigy, we would not have accepted the invitation. In our judgment the ritual is a type of black magic and vigilantism. The design of the ritual as described to us could have a negative impact on the community and may be psychologically deleterious to some participants. As a result, we have decided to not participate in this year’s event.

    We take this ethical action at great cost to ourselves. The unilateral changes made without notification by the Real Witches Ball violated and voided our agreements, and as other venues will have already scheduled appearances by speakers for that time period, we are locked out.

    We wish to state, without hesitation or equivocation, that we denounce and decry any form of interpersonal abuse, including child abuse, spousal abuse, parental abuse, or destructive manipulation. We firmly support and encourage any who have suffered such abuse to seek aid from trained professionals in overcoming its insidious effects. We believe the support of the community can be highly positive when added to this professional healing work. This does not include participation in negative rituals.

    Signed : Don Michael Kraig, Raven Grimassi, and Stephanie Ann Taylor

    P.S. Following my posting on the Pagan Nation website in order to bring to light why the authors actually withdrew in mass, we are told that changes are now being made to this ritual by Mr. Drew and some of his associates at Pagan Nation. These changes are currently being kept secret from the general membership of Pagan Nation and are unknown to the above signed authors. We hope that the changes are positive ethical ones not designed to harm anyone.

  58. Avatar
    ajdrew| October 9, 2007 |

    Iparenting Update – I said in my blog that I asked to remove the article featuring Jo Frost. removed it from the URL I provided them. Recently, the article was found on a different site that owns and I was called a liar. I pointed out the fact that what I said was true as it was removed from the URL where I had originally found it. Of course that was not good enough for Frost supporters to wrap their minds around.

    So follow this, the article that formerly featured Jo Frost which Frost supporters have commented on has been changed to exclude references by the Frosts. The URL which Frost supporters provided was:

    The original article can be found at the google cache of the page at:

    You will note that while the references to Wicca as a positive option for teens have not been removed, all reference to Gavin and Yvonne Frost’s Church and School of Wicca have been removed. This should illustrate that is not the Christian based pagan haters that some have insinuated, but are simply concerned with the lies said to them by Jo Frost concerning the Church and School of Wicca’s willingness to teach children without parental permission as well as the content of the Frost’s Witches Bible / Good Witches Bible which appears to be a pedophilic instructional.

    So then, unless Frost supporters are willing to add to their list of “Drewbies” and other followers of my cultic personality, it seems fairly obvious that the real reason so many people are objection to the Frost’s initial writing and continued support for that writing is because they independently believe the material is horrifically offensive. Not because they worship at my feet.

    Author Commentary – Concerning the letter issued by Don Michael Kraig, Raven Grimassi, and Stephanie Ann Taylor. Simply put, it is a lie. We never announced any form of violent ritual. I announced that I would be conducting a Sacrifice of Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy as part of a modified form of ADF liturgy called the Outsider Offering. This was an almost insignificant part of main ritual, not a ritual unto itself. So there has not been any rewriting of a ritual.

    Raven Grimassi, whose book The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Wicca praises Gavin and Yvonne Frost, was given access to information concerning what was really happening, assurred that rumors were just that. He still withdrew and is now covering his ass as he knows I think he is rather limp and I am more than willing to say so.

    Shadowhawk: When you quote such material, could you please provide a link to the material so I can properly respond?

    Mr. Anderson – I attacked Mr. Buckland in a book? I think I illustrated that his homophobic statements of the early 1970s compounded the similar statements by Gavin Frost, erupting in what I call the Witch War of 1972. Again we see a tendency by members of the pagan community to want to brush things under the carpet.

    The reason today’s pagan community is so accepting of the GLB community is that back in the day, when Dr. Buckland and Gavin Frost made homophobic statements; people like Herman Slater stood up to them, backed them down, and initiated social reform. Today, Dr. Buckland has apologized for his statements and has been rather clear that he supports gay rights. He is a great man who should be respected. After all, we all do things in our youth which we later regret.

    Gavin Frost, on the other hand, continues to promote and make available for sale the book which I feel contains pedophilic literature. He has never stated that it would be immoral or unethical to practice what is described in that book. The closest he has come is to be indignant in his year 2000 foreword, warning of law suites, when he says that today one shouldn’t have sex with children. Of course the same book tells you how to minimize your legal exposure if you feel it is necessary.

    Why do I not want material removed from the book in question? Why would I? It is true and it should be remembered. The statements that Dr. Buckland and Mr. Frost said in the early 70s created a huge Witch War, one which defined the modern pagan community.

    I would say that it would be a great day when Gavin Frost admits he was wrong, that it is immoral and unethical for adults to have sex with children, that the sexual initiation of children is not a basis for Wicca, and that he made it all up when he wrote his book. But at this point it has become rather clear that the man must honestly believe what he wrote to this very day. After all, why would he not have done this prior?

    Concerning the continued demands for victims, again I reply that I am simply commenting on a book, which seems to be a pedophilic instructional.

  59. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    In Ajs newest Nlog post he Claims that Iparenting has literally Defrosted by Supposedly not mentioning the Frosts or the Church and school yet in the first Paragraph it is mentioned. Also for this to have been a true victory Aj they would have pulled the article completely.. so HOORAY for our side.
    Pretty hollow victory huh AJ

  60. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    I just have to wonder why it’s so important to drag everyone down like this. The article on iParenting was a good article, well-written and informative. What a shame to butcher something that would have been informative and helpful to someone in the name of – what? – justice? Hardly. It seems to have become a personal vendetta.

  61. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |

    AJ Drew-

    Do me a favor. Define “homophobic”. I am very curious as to your views regarding what constitutes this mindset.

    Let me give you an example. Say that I am the High Priest of a specific coven, and that I do not allow homosexuals to be members of my specific coven.

    Or, say that I hold it as my precise view, within my tradition, that homosexuality is not a natural state for purposes of religious practice.

    But, let us say that, at the same time, I support gay rights in overall society, that I support anti-discrimination laws in housing and employment, and that I even support gay marriage.

    But, at the same time, let us suppose that I do not necessarily support the entirety of the so-called gay agenda.

    For example, what if I do not support the rights of transgendered persons in certain regards. What if I teach that this is something that is not to be encouraged, that it is in fact a sickness which many in the medical community might wish to take advantage of for financial reasons?

    Or, what if I might find some aspects of public education of children in regards to the gay agenda, let us say, objectionable?

    Perhaps I don’t want gay people coming into my sons or my daughters classrooms talking about how cool it is to be gay, and how at least you don’t have to worry about unwanted pregnancies, that sort of thing.

    What if I don’t want them telling my eight year old child that they should explore their sexual feelings and consider any fleeting sensation as an opportunity to be explored, not rejected?

    What if I take great exception to the prospect of some five alarm fire prancing around in front of my son or daughter and telling them that my religious beliefs are intolerant and ignorant?

    So, then, Mr. Drew, am I homophobic? Am I maybe just thirty percent homophobic? Fifty percent?

    If I put this out in a book, and it is published, are you going to go off on a rant and start a movement to have me banned, while accusing me of starting a “witch war”?

  62. Avatar
    E_Anderson| October 9, 2007 |

    Once again, Mr. Drew displays his mental illness for all to see.

    As I have previously written, people who are paranoid see all others as being wrong and only they are correct. Now, if something is produced to show they are wrong, they will rationalize away the information to safeguard their mindset from being challenged.

    This is exactly what has happened in Mr. Drew’s latest post.

    Mr. Drew writes, “We never announced any form of violent ritual” in an attempt to contradict what Kraig, Grimassi and Taylor wrote. Mr. Drew’s statement is true, but the official note from the three never claimed anything of a violent ritual.

    So first his falsely reinterprets what the three posted, then he calls what they wrote a “lie.” He invents words that he puts in their mouths and calls them liars for doing it! I hope everyone here can see his sickness that is causing this.

    Mr. Drew claimed his Sacrifice in Effigy ritual (which he has since changed the name) was “an almost insignificant part of main ritual.” And yet, for weeks this was the only topic he posted on the home page of the event. Can anyone describe any other festival where for weeks the only aspect of it that appears on the main web page for the festival is “almost insignificant?” I can’t. But Mr. Drew is so obsessed with the Frosts that something which does not take 100% of his time is considered “insignificant” to him. The compulsive behavior is just so incredibly evident and so in need of treatment.

    The text about the Frosts in Mr. Grimassi’s book, as Mr. Drew was informed of many weeks ago, was written by the Frosts or their representatives themselves. This was described in the book (which Mr. Drew, in his obsessive manner, totally ignored) and was posted in response to his false claims on his website.

    Now, it’s quite possible that due to his compulsive behavior, Mr. Drew may not have seen this fact in the book because he wouldn’t look for anything that might contradict his obsessive opinion.

    But he knows the facts, and in his paranoia he refuses to accept anything that disagrees with his mindset. As a result, he is spreading false information in what is clearly an attempt at restraint of trade, and I would hope that Mr. Grimassi issues a lawsuit for libel (calling presenting facts “covering his ass” and restraint of trade) or at least get a “cease and desist” order.

    Mr. Drew still has in print a book that attacks Mr. Buckland, but claims they are now friends. Has he withdrawn the book? No. Has he edited out his attack? No.

    Larry M. Smith wrote of this book, ” I found Mr. Buckland’s name so many times in the book, i figure, why dont we just call the book “i hate Buckland” cause i swear its almost in every page,”

    Lori A. Novak wroet: “I was shocked and severely disappointed that this book actually had very little to do with developing a family tradition and more to do with two things [including]:

    1. Letting us know EXACTLY how badly the author things [sic] Raymond Buckland and others SUCK!”

    Nikki (Macleay Island, Australia) writes “The Raymond Buckland references are … cleverly condecending.”

    A Customer [anonymous] wrote: “While the title would lead one to believe that this is a book about relationships, it actually seems to be little more than a soapbox from which to criticize and ponificate. In the introduction the author writes: “I may not be the most famous Witch in the United States, but with your support I am certainly well on my way to becoming the world’s most infamous…

    The main trust of this book on “relationships” centers on a criticism of author Ray Buckland, and authors Gavin and Yvonne Frost. “

    The above were all taken from They show what your book is about, Mr. Drew. Now that Mr. Buckland is your friend, whom you say “should be respected.” But have you changed your book to indicate this? No. Your ego and illness is far more important.

    Finally, Mr. Drew ends with “Concerning the continued demands for victims, again I reply that I am simply commenting on a book, which seems to be a pedophilic instructional.”

    No, that is not true. You have commented on the book. Now you obsessively and compulsively repeat your accusations. And yet, when asked to prove that your accusations have even the slightest bit of merit, you fall back and refuse to produce any evidence. The total lack of evidence that your accusations have any merit whatsoever would run counter to your mindset and paranoia that you are right and more than 30 years of history is irrelevant. That is identical to the people who think the Earth is flat and astronauts never landed on the Moon. It is totally delusional and an attempt to maintain your paranoia.

    PLEASE find a therapist who will actually help you before your paranoia and obsessions switch to your family or friends. I know you don’t want to hurt them, but your illness may lead you to do so. Get some help.

  63. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |


    “I just have to wonder why it’s so important to drag everyone down like this. The article on iParenting was a good article, well-written and informative. What a shame to butcher something that would have been informative and helpful to someone in the name of – what? – justice? Hardly. It seems to have become a personal vendetta.”

    Here’s what I think. I think that Jo Frost, and for that matter yourself, are more hated by the Drewbies than Gavin and Yvonne themselves.

    If you read between the lines, this is easy to see. One person, “Knowledge Is Power”, even called you stupid. Now, why should any person call you stupid? There are two possible reasons I can think of for calling you such a name-

    1.You refuse to see an opportunity to make a name for yourself by accusing the Frosts of abuse. In other words, you refuse to lie for what the Drewbies consider the “greater good”.

    2.They, the Drewbies, believe that you have in fact been abused by the Frosts, but you are so “stupid” that you can’t see it, perhaps because you have purposely buried it in your subconscious and refuse to face up to it.

    Has anyone of them ever privately contacted you yet, or made any kind of contact with you, privately or otherwise, wanting to hear your side of the story? You have given them many opportunities and invitations to do so, yet for the longest time I know they did not, and Drew even said there was no need for that.

    In fact, he stated that he was not concerned about you, his objection was solely to the book-though previously he has stated that he believes the Frosts must have practiced what they taught.

    Well, if he believes the Frosts practiced what they taught, you and Jo Frost represent two very big problems for them, don’t you?

  64. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    I could have sworn that at one point there was an announcement of “hundreds” of people willing to claim they had been abused as children by adults that were using the Frosts’ “Witches Bible” as a guide. Surely I wasn’t the only person who saw that, right?

  65. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    I challenged Drew about that point on his CYBERSMITHY blog before he banned me from his blog And Aj just to show you im not making the Raven Grimassi statement up heres the link you cried about

  66. Avatar
    Knowledge Is Power| October 9, 2007 |

  67. Avatar
    ajdrew| October 9, 2007 |

    So now the story changes from I lied about taking the article down to why did I write to them. I wrote to them because after reading what I find to be pedophilic instructions in the recommended reading list of the Church and School of Wicca, after realizing that the founders of the Church and School of Wicca wrote the instructional, and after reading what seems like clear lies by the current chief administrator concerning their policy on undreamed students, I thought should be aware of what they were promoting.

    Why did pull the initial article and then change the one on their teen site? My guess is because they felt Jo Frost lied to the interviewer. That or the Frost’s website is a lie. In the interview, she told that the Church and School of Wicca would not take children as students without parental permission. On the Church and School of Wicca’s website, it says that if you do not have your parents permission then they require a $100.00 deposit. The Church and School of Wicca’s website still sells The Good Witches Bible with all the content of The Witches Bible. Contrary to popular belief, all instructions concerning the sexual initiation of children is still included. Many if not most, parents believe the sexual instruction of their children should involve the parent’s participation.

    So my guess is that does not feel that promoting the Church and School of Wicca to children is an appropriate thing to do. I agree. Most of the main stream folk I have spoken to agree. Most of the people that work with children who I have spoken to agree. In fact, the only people who seem to disagree are the folk who support the Frosts and even they tend to express disgust for what that book instructs.

    Of course there is also the token I have no evidence bit. Again, my stance is that the book seems to be a pedophilic instructional. I object to a pedophilic instructional being passed for the foundation of my religion. The evidence is the book itself. Buy it and read it.

    On infamy, yep in a community, which doesn’t seem to want to speak up about a thing I am infamous. Outside of that community, rational decisions are often made and folk like decide not to promote organizations who lie in interviews and who promote material the organization objects to.

  68. Avatar
    E_Anderson| October 9, 2007 |

    Mr. Drew wrote: “I object to a pedophilic instructional being passed for the foundation of my religion.”

    And yet he has stated elsewhere that he is not a Witch or Wiccan.

    So if this instruction has resulted in so many pedophillic attacks, where are the victims? Why can’t you produce ten? Or one?

    Hmm. A book that you claim encourages abuse but after more than 30 years of publishing you can’t produce even one person who has been abused as a direct result of this book. Why is that?

    On the other hand, you don’t seem to mind book banning and book burning in your obsessive drive caused by your mental illness. Your past shows how you have turned your personal rage against others. Assume, for a moment, that your fantasy is fulfilled and the Frost’s book goes out of publication.

    Who will you turn your paranoia and obsession toward next? Who will you perform rituals with effigies of your imagined foes against next?

    Will your illness turn you to attacking your children or your wife? Obsessions don’t just go away, they morph; they change, they turn their focus onto something that is right there.

    PLEASE get into therapy before you hurt someone close to you.

  69. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |

    AJ Drew-

    Just so you know, I read your article on your site where you answered my statements here about Ren Fairs. It was actually quite good, and well thought out. Not to say I necessarily agree with it, but you did make me reconsider, which is the mark of a talented writer.

    I would have told you this on your blog, but I chose to tell you this here, because I know you’ll probably ban me from your site like you did Shadowhawk, and possibly misrepresent my words, like your little bitch pussy friend Archaeus has with both myself and Shadowhawk.

    The point to all this being I have seen evidence of your writing ability, the way you construct your thoughts and ideas and transmit them, and you do have some skill at doing it.

    That’s why I say you are full of fucking shit when you say you can’t write because you are brain damaged.

    I also earlier read your fucking pathetic excuse for why you can’t form new memories, comparing it to the plot of a movie from a few years back. By the way, the correct name of the movie is “Memento”, not “Momentum”, or whatever you called it. That’s fine, that’s an easy enough mistake to make, no it’s not further evidence of brain damage.

    If you can do blog posts of that sort of equality, then I say you can write books, whether it be about blacksmithing or Ren Fairs, or what ever.

    But you would evidently prefer to continue this fraudulent exercise and hang with little bitches like Archaeus, and other people like him, who prefer to wallow in their misery and demand pity and/or accolades, and whine like the little bitches they are when they don’t get it.

    Have fun. If you ever meet Arhaeus in person, let me give you a piece of advice. Don’t chew gum around him, you might traumatize the po widdle man.

  70. Avatar
    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    Pagan Temple this is directly from my commentssection on my Youtube account

    shamanshadow | October 16, 2007 (Block User)
    Pagan Temple smells of burning flesh also.
    Perhaps you two should burn together.
    More the merrier…
    shamanshadow | October 14, 2007 (Block User)
    You smell of burning flesh.

  71. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |

    Pagan Temple this is directly from my commentssection on my Youtube account

    shamanshadow | October 16, 2007 (Block User)
    Pagan Temple smells of burning flesh also.
    Perhaps you two should burn together.
    More the merrier…
    shamanshadow | October 14, 2007 (Block User)
    You smell of burning flesh.

    I wouldn’t block him, if I were you. Let him rant, who cares?

    Burning flesh, huh? Interesting he should put it that way. I think he’s a sick, sick individual.

    Poor widdle man, shumbody fondled it’s widdle petuh and made it get shtifff and caushed nashty schticky schtuff to come oozhing out of it and make it feel stwange.

    Ahhhhh, po widdle bitch man.

  72. Avatar
    wushih| October 9, 2007 |

    I got an email from Gavin this morning and, along with other conversation, he has suggested that we all might try to find a way to “get out of the swamp”. I think we have turned the conversation towards a little more positive direction but I think we could do more and work toward finding more light.

    I mean, um, I find the bubble gum references to be just as funny as the next guy and Mr. Drew’s obsession is getting to be boring but maybe Gavin and Yvonne are not enjoying this as much as some of the rest of us. Can’t blame them.

    By the way, the computer has helped communication with Gavin since I didn’t have to translate his handwriting. How I remember the time when he gave me a recipe that included the phrase, “slice one onion”. His handwriting and my sense of humor translated that into, “slice one wine”.

    Sometimes weirdness abounds.

    Maybe that’s the problem. We can’t understand what he’s telling us because we just can’t read his handwriting. Hah!


  73. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |


    Point taken. I’ll try and behave myself.

  74. Avatar
    Rhiannon| October 9, 2007 |

    Please. Playing that game of “superior” s just too high schoolish for me.
    If one wishes to make a point and have it believed then back it up. I personally found it interesting that Yale is writing about Witan Law.

    Pagan Temple
    Studying Medieval History can bring about some eye openers. The Dark ages were basically before 1100a.d. That is the time when the Roman Catholic church started taking over and having more an dmore power through out Europe.
    If you really want to beliee it had nothing to do with Pagans that do so but you miss out on some of the Pagan history while believing that.
    The High Middle Ages or where the Ren Faires are based upon started around 1400. !500 was when things really started changing. Women were statring to be taught to read and at times think for themselves more. It is the time when the Roman Catholic Church was being torn down in favor of new beliefs. Durning QE1 many rulers used “sooth sayers” to determine if things would be right for their coronations or for a war or many other things that held importance for that ruler. Tarot cards were used during the 1400s and up. The satrs were consulted. So for one to say the Middle Ages have nothig to do with Paganism I have to believ that, that person hasn’t really studied it.

    (shrug) Anyway I have been away from all this because of business and other stuff.
    Hope all enjoy the weekend. I hear it is going to be beautiful!!!!!!

  75. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    I have no problem with proving one’s point. I just wasn’t expecting a history lesson in the process. I realize history is a handy thing to study, especially when dealing with Pagan Reconstructionism and anything that survived the Middle Ages.

    Facts are always good when backing up a point.

  76. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |


    OK, fair enough, and I do get the difference between the Dark Ages and the Rennaissance. It just seems to me that Ren Fairs focuis more on the former and not enough on the latter. Like I said, that seems to be the case, I have never been to one.

    Perhaps you missed the part where I said earlier that I might well enjoy going to one. Just that I wouldn’t attach a lot of pagan significance to it.

    By the way, also, the Rennaissance was mostly in Italy, and maybe to some extent in France, if I understand it correctly. Ren Fairs seem predominantly English, with maybe some German and Celtic influences. Again, I’m just going by limited knowledge.

    I guess my point is, if I were going to a festival and wanted it to be an accurate representation of paganism, I would prefer it have an ancient Graeco-Roman, or pre-Christian Celtic theme.

    Going to a Ren Fair and thinking it’s pagan, in my opinion, would be like trying to relive the Sixties anti-war protests at a Civil War reenactment.

  77. Avatar
    wushih| October 9, 2007 |

    Ah, Pagan Temple…

    Somehow I can’t see you entirely behaving yourself. I enjoy your posts and would miss it if you were too good.

    Yer frend,


  78. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |


    “Ah, Pagan Temple…

    Somehow I can’t see you entirely behaving yourself. I enjoy your posts and would miss it if you were too good.

    Yer frend,


    Thanks, I appreciate that. Just the same, I’ll keep the nastier comments on my own blog. I have actually restrained myself somewhat, compared to what I am actually capable of-especially when it comes to a man who puts a link to my blog, and then includes a hover box that tells outright lies about me.

    That “burning flesh” thing that Shadowhawk was talking about sounds more and more like a threat, the more I think about it.

    Hey, that’s all right. I think I might make a little poppet tonight, out of some chewed gum.

    I think I’ll use “Juicy Fruit”.

    Ok, that’s enough, PT. (Smack).

  79. Avatar
    Knowledge Is Power| October 9, 2007 |

    Renaissance Fairs are just that, a modern day FUN reenactment of our understanding of those times past. Nope, they don’t focus on the Middle Ages or the Dark ages. It’s simply a fun thing to do.
    I’ve never in my life seen anyone or any fair claiming that it’s exactly how people lived. Have you been to Plymouth Plantation?
    Sorta kinda like that on that idea. The Plantation is more a stick up your butt kind of thing where Ren fairs are just a whole lot of fun, it’s ENTERTAINMENT.

    As for the Celts choosing one champion, well, I have to disagree with that and the archeological evidence of very large Celtic battlefields. A simple search at your local library should bring up several books on the subject. If you’d like a web search will do the same, but you know how the web is.

    As for David and Goliath, that’s one of the more believable bible stories in my opinion. It’s entirely possible that there was a warrior who was exceptionally large, who was unbeatable. We have athletes today that mirror that image. I don’t claim to be an expert, but an amateur ‘truth hunter’. I’m not afraid that some of the Bible is historically accurate, I find it quite intriguing and a fun hunt. I’ve personally seen and experienced far more strange and unusual things than this story.

    Shadowhawk, when you are disputing the truth of any of Mr. Drews statements, I would appreciate it if you could copy and paste the articles in which you claim he lied. It would give much more weight and credibility to your argument. As it stands now, you are asking people to simply go on your word. The only thing that I’ve read about Drew and the Frosts is that yes, he has a very real problem with chapter 4, though the other chapters disturb him, he’s acknowledged that consenting adults can do as they please. I’ve found no other evidence. I’ve also never found anything written by Drew or his Wife saying that they wrote this ritual “A Sacrifice to Caring”. I’ve only found articles/blogs saying that the survivors of childhood sexual abuse have themselves written this ritual.

    Also, Pagan Temple, Drew has stated many, many times that his Wife helps him write/rewrite his articles. I do believe at one time he responded without her help to a question I’d asked him on his blog, and it was barely understandable. You know, I would imagine, they being husband and wife, they understand each other very well, and she understands what he’s trying to say. If you look long enough, you’ll find everything I’ve just said on his blog and others he’s written on, including this one.

  80. Avatar
    Rhiannon| October 9, 2007 |

    Pagan Temple
    The Ren time did expand out through out Europe. It started in Italy and went from there. QE1 and the Medicis had a great deal to do with the Ren time period and future events.

    I can’t see attaching a Pagan theme to the Ren Faires. BUT for some reason unknown it does seem like a lot of Pagans do them.
    I would think it has something to do with the Faires being a lot of fun and also not having to worry about religious persecution like in the SCA. I have never worked a Ren Faire but have gone just for the fun of it.
    If you get a chance I would suggest going just for fun!

    Ok I have work to do and will not be able to read this blog as much as I would like.
    Please have a great weekend!!!!! Get out and enjoy it while the nice weather is here!!!!

  81. Avatar
    gina| October 9, 2007 |

    After reading all 80+ enteries.I literally have a headache..All I’ve seen is vulgar name calling on the part of Shadowhawk, Pagan Temple, Is this how you want others to veiw your charactor? Name calling does not make one look intelligent by any means..infact, It makes one look ridiculous and people will not take you serious..As for Jill Medicineheart, how do you justify shooting 80 rounds of ammo into an effigy of AJ as a ritual? Do you know what makes you look like? Not a sane person by any means. As for Archaeus, I am not sure what the problem is, But I dont think that Wicca itself is to blame..Only those whe seek to twist and manipulate the concept for selfesh means or to hurt others..The one thing I have not seen Is how frosts explain how they believe that devirginzing a child as a form of ritual is acceptable in the name of Wicca, The problem I have with frosts is the words THEY have written and still continue to do so and say it is a Bible. Instead of allowing your minions, followers, or what ever they call them selves to fight your battles for you, Why dont you, the frosts, show some charactor and back bone and step forth and explain those words that you have written, and why you consider them acceptable as a form of religeous practice.

  82. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    The Frosts are currently on the road and don’t have access to a computer at this time. When they get to Springfield, we will offer them use of one of ours.

  83. Avatar
    Mr E Anderson| October 9, 2007 |

    If anyone goes to Mr. Drew’s website, they’ll see that you’, Gina, are a regular poster there. Yes, you’re another groupie lapping up anything Mr. Drew says.

    You completely ignore that he is deeply mentally ill, suffering from an obsession that may lead to harming family members (obsessions can quickly change their focus).

    You also ignore the fact that even though the Frost’s book has been published for more than 30 years, neither Mr. Drew nor anyone else can produce a single person who has been abused as a direct result of the book. That means the book may be a failure, but it also means that it is no threat.

    Because you are a groupie to Mr. Drew, I imagine you’ve only gone on what he posted and I doubt that you have even seen a copy of the book, let alone read it. If you have, why don’t you give us a critique of some other aspects of the book–things you agree with and things you disagree with–including page numbers?

    My guess is you can’t because you don’t know the book at all.

    I believe your heart is in the right place–wanting to keep children safe–but your divisive support for an obsessive, mentally ill person, won’t help anyone and will harm the Pagan community.

  84. Avatar
    Knowledge Is Power| October 9, 2007 |

    Mr. Anderson,

    I’m wondering if you are a licensed Psychologist or Psychiatrist? If so, how is it that you have come to the conclusions that you have about Mr. Drew being “deeply mentally ill”?
    I do know psychologists who wouldn’t make a diagnosis because of writing by an idividual who wants differing sized dildos for underaged girls out of print and out of his religion and the world at large. That takes time, work and being in the presence of said individual. If you aren’t one of these, then it is your OPINION rather than FACT on which you make these assumptions. It would give more weight to your arguments if you stated that it’s your opinion of Mr. Drew and not fact. I’m looking for facts and evidence.

    I see a Wiccan man who is a FATHER of two small children, who’s spent much of his life serving the Pagan/Wiccan community. I see someone who gives facts and corroboration to what he writes. I have no such facts from you. If you could do this, you would have a much, much better argument. I’ve searched, and so far, I’ve found no evidence that Mr. Drew has lied about anything.

    I’m still waiting for evidence that Mr. Drew has said he is not Wiccan, that he’s lied and that he’s ‘obsessed’ and ‘mentally ill’ and I still have none.

    I’m sorry, but until I have such proof, I stand on the side of Mr. Drew, his Wife and all who oppose all such writing. I also oppose NAMBLA, child pornography and anything else that I consider a pedophilic instructional or a threat to children.

    I read on Pagan Temples’ site that Mr. Frost is an ‘old hippie’ etc. and that’s why he’s come to the belief that it’s ok to use differing sized dildo’s on little girls and surgery on both girls and boys. I find that hard to understand as my parents are old hippies and they NEVER thought that child molestation or differing sized dildo’s for little girls or performing surgery on young boys and young girls was a good thing.
    Mr. Anderson and Pagan Temple, I was there. I was a child of the Hippie age. I knew lot’s of hippies, bikers, drug users etc., went to hippie gatherings and not once did I see or hear anything of the like. As a matter of fact, if anything like that had been done to any of these people’s children, violence would have ensued on said perpetrators by a large group of men. I was a witness to those times, and while sexuality was relaxed, it didn’t include children. The most explicit thing I’ve ever seen two adults do while I was a child was heavy kissing. If we kids were in the room, they’d stop. Children were sacred in the Hippie age that I experienced. I was only treated with the utmost kindness and consideration while at any of these gatherings.

    Shadowhawk, I’ve read your site and am still waiting for proof that Mr. Drew has lied. You still have your article up about iparenting but they’ve changed that, so what is what here? I’m trying to give those who so robustly defend the Frost’s the benefit of the doubt, after all, if you’re so adamant that they’ve done nothing wrong, you must have a reason, yes? I’m still waiting for that reasoning.
    Thankyou in advance for your consideration.

  85. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    Knowledge is Power, I also have a blog with several things from my childhood with the Frosts posted up. Please feel free read it.

  86. Avatar
    Knowledge Is Power| October 9, 2007 |


    I read through some of your blog. I do understand that you weren’t involved in the ritual described in your words “three pages”.
    I’d like to know why your mother felt it was necessary to inform the Frost’s that in no way was HER daughter participating in such a ritual. Your mother must’ve felt at the time that it was in fact being practiced, yes? If not, then why even say anything to them at all? The Frost’s said “OK” didn’t they? Did they also tell your mother that they didn’t practice it?

    I also have an issue with the accuracy of the Frost’s statements about ‘reading between the lines’ to garner historical information. It was pointed out by Rhiannon I beleive, that the ‘baton’ thing has never been viewed by any historian, archeologist or scientist for the purpose that the Frost’s state. I don’t know whether or not they are drug users , but what other explanation is there for assuming that something like that was used as a dildo for previous human beings to use on very young girls? An antler doesn’t resemble a penis, only in the most abstract way and it would seem to me with it’s pointed tip, just not fit for the job. The moon was used for many things, not just counting menses, but how can you assume it was even for menses? It could have very well been for crop use, animal husbandry or religious purposes.

    I’ve also noted, that the Frost’s claim that the Celts chose a champion to avoid war. This is untrue. The Celts were a creative people, but a violent people as is proven by the many battlefields and other historical evidence (weapons, war tools etc.) found many times over. I’m sure the Celts were kind some of the time, but certainly not always. They did NOT win every war, they were also beaten and beaten badly in several wars.

    I’m sure you’ve seen the many discrepancies of the Frost’s that have been pointed out so many times. All you need to do to point out the discrepancies by Mr. Drew and/or his Wife is to copy and paste both articles with a link to each. I’m sorry, I’m not giving out my e mail address as I’m sure you can understand why. But go ahead and paste them here or on your blog.
    I cannot find any that people are claiming to exist.

    It’s also been claimed that there was evidence of this ancient ritual of removing the hymen of a young girl three days before marriage by Pagan Temple. He said it was from the Bible. It was found later to be misunderstood by him, it was actually brought to the husbands mother AFTER consumation and after marriage. This particular practice, proof of virginity is in many, many cultures as virginity was a prize for the husband alone. Proof of not being a virgin was also cause for the marriage not being valid. By this I mean that if it could be proven that the bride was not a virgin at the time of consumation with her husband, she could and most likely would be rejected as a wife.

    Also, I read all of Jean M. Auels’ books, and the information the Frost’s have given is incorrect. There was a ritual, but it was between an older man and younger woman or an older woman and a younger man. No dildo’s involved. Auel also postulated that a male Neanderthal just ‘took’ a female sexually when he felt like it. I disagree strongly. I’ve loved reading about neanderthal and probably know more about them than most people, aside from archeologists and anthropologists of course… and I simply cannot come to that conclusion, it just doesn’t fit with everything else that’s known about them. I’m not claiming to be right, but will not concede that Auel is either.

    Also, what about Mr. Frost’s claim to degrees that so far, there’s no evidence of? Carol Maltby says she called the school and there’s no record. I also read on Mr. Drew’s blog that there was an older witchcraft school than the Frost’s so that also is inacurate that they started the oldest school, yes?

    I could find more discrepancies if you’d like me to, but I think this gives substantial weight to my argument. I’d appreciate it if you could show me the same. If you’d like I’ll go back and copy and paste each of these for you, but you’ve read them all haven’t you?

    Now for the threats of violence. Debra Ravenswood practiced sympathetic magick. Now, that is an attempt to make something happen by a sympathetic action or actions ie:firing 80 rounds into an effigy of Mr. Drew. Yep, it’s a threat of violence and hoping to bring about his brutal murder. She wanted that to happen to Mr. Drew, she went to an awful lot of effort to make it happen, even asking her ‘friends’ to help by lighting candles. Such a shame, she’s such an attractive girl, sad that she’s resorted to such ugly things.

  87. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    I’m sorry, I’m not a scholar of ancient history. I don’t follow the Frosts’ path, so I don’t find it necessary to make sure all their information is wrong. I do my own research for my own interests.

    I’d be happy to discuss any questions you have about what I’ve written on my own blog, not here. I don’t fight other people’s fights – I came here to defend my parents and my friends. I was reading accusations of abuse, and I let it be known I was not abused.

    Have a lovely evening!

  88. Avatar
    gina| October 9, 2007 |

    MR Anderson,

    First off, This is not about A.J Drew. This is about a Non-Fiction book titled “The Good Witch’s Bible”, if it was fiction, I would have tossed it in trash where all good books of trash belong and I would not have even given it a second look or be posting on this blog. The problem I have with it is that it was wrote as an “Instructional On How To Practice The World’s Oldest Religeon”. The word “Instructional” means to teach or to instruct. I have read/owned many books on the subject of Witchcraft, some came with instructions for sexual initiation of ADULTS, not CHILDREN!
    Instructionals are always Non-Fiction and are written for a purpose, or to advise, enlighten or motivate. As for children being hurt or not. I pray that none were as you say. As for me posting on Mr Drew’s blog yes, I do, Because I, also believe that the frosts have contributed to pedophiliac poison that is spreading in our country and are using Wicca to do so. You do have to ask your self, do those words really belong in a instructional on how to practice Wicca??? Regardless of whether or not a child is hurt by it. If this was fiction, I would not be here…but it’s not, those instructions that reflect what goes on in the frost’s minds, for they themselves wrote them.

    fenix said…
    The Frosts are currently on the road and don’t have access to a computer at this time. When they get to Springfield, we will offer them use of one of ours.

    Thank you, I will be waiting.

  89. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    There is, of course, the fact that the Frosts have mentioned they are no longer arguing these things here on a blog. If I’m not mistaken, they have been asked by their attorney to refrain from making any more statements.

  90. Avatar
    Knowledge Is Power| October 9, 2007 |

    fenix said…
    I’m sorry, I’m not a scholar of ancient history. I don’t follow the Frosts’ path, so I don’t find it necessary to make sure all their information is wrong. I do my own research for my own interests.

    I’d be happy to discuss any questions you have about what I’ve written on my own blog, not here. I don’t fight other people’s fights – I came here to defend my parents and my friends. I was reading accusations of abuse, and I let it be known I was not abused.


    I’m a stickler for accuracy and the truth. The issue here is the question of the Frost’s telling the truth in response to the questions they’ve been asked. If someone is going to participate and be a leader of any religion, it should be about the truth, there is no religion without the truth. If someone is going to ask you a question about the history you’ve based your religion on, it’s required that you give the truth to that person, yeah? I’ve seen no accusations of abuse, but it would be reasonable to conclude that it was practiced.

    fenix said…
    There is, of course, the fact that the Frosts have mentioned they are no longer arguing these things here on a blog. If I’m not mistaken, they have been asked by their attorney to refrain from making any more statements.

    The Frost’s stated that they were advised to no longer debate this issue with A.J. Drew, not everyone else.;

  91. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    “I’ve seen no accusations of abuse, but it would be reasonable to conclude that it was practiced. “

    I see.

    I’m having a problem understanding some things, I guess. Everyone keeps demanding the truth, and I’ve offered information on the things that I know. Just on what I know, of course. Like I said, I don’t claim to be any sort of scholar on ancient history, and I’ve always believed that if you want answers, you should find them for yourself. “If that which you seek, you do not find within, you will never find it without,” right? I don’t take anyone’s word on what’s truth and what’s not truth – I don’t care for other people’s definitions. Besides, if I let someone else dictate “truth” to me, how does that make me any better than someone who goes to a church every Sunday and let’s some minister tell them how to think?

    If it’s that important to you, then great. Seek out your answers. I don’t have the answers for the Frosts. What I DO have the answer for the assumptions that anyone was ever abused. Making the assumption there was abuse is dangerous, especially after I’ve already stepped forward to say, “NO – there was none.”

  92. Avatar
    Mr. E. Anderson.| October 9, 2007 |

    Knowledge is Power, you are correct that most psychologists (apparently with the exception of those who appear on Fox News) wouldn’t make a diagnosis based on one thing written more than 30 years ago followed by little else on the subject. Professional psychologists/psychiatrists need more evidence and must follow the standards of the DSM IV (if you don’t know what that is, look it up).

    Mr. Drew has obsessively focused on a few passages from one book by the Frosts for many years. He has gone out of his way to hunt down areas where he can attack them.

    Now, according to the DSM IV, there are four criteria to diagnose obsession to the point of mental illness
    1) recurrent and persistent thoughts, impulses, or images that are experienced, at some time during the disturbance, as intrusive and inappropriate and that cause marked anxiety or distress

    Comment: the years of his thoughts at all times along with the obvious anxiety, rage, anger, and distress they cause clearly show he fits this criterion.

    2) the thoughts, impulses, or images are not simply excessive worries about real-life problems

    Comment: He has not been able to produce even one person who has been abused as a direct result of the Frost’s writing, even though the book has been available for over 30 years. Therefore, this is not a real-life problem and Mr. Drew fits this criterion.

    3) the person attempts to ignore or suppress such thoughts, impulses, or images, or to neutralize them with some other thought or action

    Comment: He does this by going out of his way to seek out the Frosts everywhere and verbally or in writing attack them. To this he is adding a ritual where he is going to attack them in effigy. Mr. Drew certainly fits this criterion.

    4) the person recognizes that the obsessional thoughts, impulses, or images are a product of his or her own mind (not imposed from without as in thought insertion)

    Comment: Mr. Drew, seemingly, does not fit this last criterion. However, that is because he is delusional and doesn’t accept that he suffers from the other three criteria.

    Other aspects of the DSM IV’s definition of obsessive is spending inordinate amounts of time on the obsession (Mr. Drew does), response to feelings of “contamination” (Mr. Drew, who claims he is not a Wiccan, does not want Wicca to be contaminated by the Frost’s book), a focus on sexual imagery (the entire focus of Mr. Drew’s complain, when he repeats in detail whenever he can), etc.

    The diagnoses of all psychiatrists and psychologists are opinions. That’s why you will see opposing experts in the psychological field on different sides of criminal trials. That’s also why professionals go back to the DSM IV to support their diagnoses.

    I’ve made no claims about Mr. Drew lying. I don’t know why you’ve made that assumption. I fully acknowledge that he believes in what he’s doing. That’s one of the signs of obsession. Further, Mr. Drew, on his website, has clearly stated that he is not a Wiccan. Your claims that he is contradict his own statements.

    Finally, you make some claims concerning hippies and various activities. I have made no statements about this nor do I have knowledge about it. As I stated, the fact that there is absolutely NO evidence that anyone has followed these particular concepts of the Frosts indicates that in this aspect they have failed, not that they are pedophiles or support pedophilia in any way.

  93. Avatar
    Mr. E. Anderson.| October 9, 2007 |

    Gina, this absolutely is about Mr. Drew, his mental illness and his obsession with the Frosts. Unfortunately, it has caught up well-meaning people such as yourself.

    As I have repeatedly pointed out, there is absolutely no evidence that anyone has committed abuse as a result of the Frost’s book. This is in spite of the book being out there for over 30 years. It is a failure in this aspect, but it has more than 30 years of proof that it does not encourage pedophilia as you and Mr. Drew imply.

    The fact is, Pedophilia existed long before the few pages in the Frost’s book, and unfortunately, it will exist long after the Frosts, you, Mr. Drew, and myself are dead. So what are you doing to combat it? Writing about a book that hasn’t caused any problems in a blog? Bwhahahahahahah!

    Back in the last century, there was the development of something that has become called the “Satanic Panic.” Under the encouragement of people with no psychological training and with religious agendas, families were destroyed and lives were ruined by people claiming “Satanic abuse” of children. Hundreds of millions of dollars was spent. There were almost no convictions, and the children who were abused by psychiatrists, psychologists, nurses, and prosecutors are beginning to come forward and deny their accusations. The focus on “Satanic” abuse hid the fact that there really is child abuse, it needs to be combated, and convicted abusers should be imprisoned.

    There is NO evidence whatsoever that there has been any abuse as a direct result of the Frost’s book. Mr. Drew’s and your focus on this may well cause people to ignore real abuse in your zeal to stop something that has never cause any abuse. I have to ask, “How many children are going to be abused because you’ve gotten people focused on other issues, a few pages in a book, rather than on real abuse that is taking place right now?”

    I’m sure, however, that the Frosts welcome all the focus and free advertising you’re supplying them.

  94. Avatar
    Knowledge Is Power| October 9, 2007 |

    E. Anderson. said…
    Knowledge is Power, you are correct that most psychologists (apparently with the exception of those who appear on Fox News) wouldn’t make a diagnosis based on one thing written more than 30 years ago followed by little else on the subject. Professional psychologists/psychiatrists need more evidence and must follow the standards of the DSM IV (if you don’t know what that is, look it up).

    One of my best friends has her master’s in social work, you will understand that includes psychological therapy. I showed the instructional to her, can you guess what she said? SHE DOESN’T EVEN KNOW WHO DREW IS.

    Mr. Drew has obsessively focused on a few passages from one book by the Frosts for many years. He has gone out of his way to hunt down areas where he can attack them.

    He’s spent about as much time as you and everyone else here has on the subject. How long does it take you to write here? His blogs are about the same length. Apparently according you your diagnosis, we’re all obssessed including the Frost’s who in spite of great controversy, KEEP PUBLISHING THE SHIT CAUSING ALL THE TROUBLE. Gee, it’s only three pages, why not just chuck it???

    2) the thoughts, impulses, or images are not simply excessive worries about real-life problems

    Comment: He has not been able to produce even one person who has been abused as a direct result of the Frost’s writing, even though the book has been available for over 30 years. Therefore, this is not a real-life problem and Mr. Drew fits this criterion.

    Well, I guess you must be right, it’s just A OK to publish pedophilic instructionals, why don’t you get started on your own?

    3) the person attempts to ignore or suppress such thoughts, impulses, or images, or to neutralize them with some other thought or action

    Comment: He does this by going out of his way to seek out the Frosts everywhere and verbally or in writing attack them. To this he is adding a ritual where he is going to attack them in effigy. Mr. Drew certainly fits this criterion.

    Yes, well, then you should include Debra Ravenswood in this well informed diagnosis of yours. Do you have the stones for it though?

    4) the person recognizes that the obsessional thoughts, impulses, or images are a product of his or her own mind (not imposed from without as in thought insertion)

    Comment: Mr. Drew, seemingly, does not fit this last criterion. However, that is because he is delusional and doesn’t accept that he suffers from the other three criteria.

    Other aspects of the DSM IV’s definition of obsessive is spending inordinate amounts of time on the obsession (Mr. Drew does), response to feelings of “contamination” (Mr. Drew, who claims he is not a Wiccan, does not want Wicca to be contaminated by the Frost’s book), a focus on sexual imagery (the entire focus of Mr. Drew’s complain, when he repeats in detail whenever he can), etc.

    The diagnoses of all psychiatrists and psychologists are opinions. That’s why you will see opposing experts in the psychological field on different sides of criminal trials. That’s also why professionals go back to the DSM IV to support their diagnoses.

    Here’s where you’re STILL posting falsehoods. HIS WIFE not Drew said they weren’t Wiccan. If I’m mistaken, SHOW ME THE MONEY. Sorry, no degree, it’s only your opinion and if you can’t get the facts right, how can anyone count on what you’re saying??? I ask you to show me the actual lies, the actual blog, the actual link, I still have a big fat zero.

    Finally, you make some claims concerning hippies and various activities. I have made no statements about this nor do I have knowledge about it. As I stated, the fact that there is absolutely NO evidence that anyone has followed these particular concepts of the Frosts indicates that in this aspect they have failed, not that they are pedophiles or support pedophilia in any way.

    Yes, you are correct, I did address that part of the post to both you and PT. Sorry, my mistake.
    As for publishing a pedophilic instructional, well that speaks for itself now doesn’t it.

    I know you all think you’re helping the Frost’s, but if the way you’re behaving on this board are the kind of people you actually are (and how would one know the difference?) the kind of people attracted to this kind of religion, what are you all attracting to yourselves? The way that some of the people here have treated that guy Archeus is a fine and shining example of being Pagan.
    After reading this blog, I’m sure people are just lining up to join the Frost’s version of Wicca.

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    fenix| October 9, 2007 |

    Hm. I’m sure the first line of the most recent blog on “The Yeti’s Cybersmithy” is a much better experience for anyone looking into Wicca.

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    Knowledge Is Power| October 9, 2007 |

    OH-MY-GOD, I’VE GOT IT!!!! I understand now, this is all a plot by the evil A.J.Drew and his fictional wife and fictional children AND his fictional brother to take over the world and he’s starting by planting his Drewbies here to discredit the Frosts!!!! ALL THE FROST FOLLOWERS ARE ACTUALLY DREWBIES IN DISGUISE!!!! OH MY GOD, this is justlike an episode of Pinky and The Brain!!!

  97. Avatar
    fenix| October 9, 2007 |


  98. Avatar
    The Pagan Temple| October 9, 2007 |

    Uhhmmm-hippies practiced free love and group sex, and did drugs on a regular basis, a good many times I am sure when their children and other’s children were around.

    The point to my hippie argument was based on the assumption that AJ Drew was relaying correctly and honestly the information as to what was in “The Witches Bible”.

    If it did say what he purports it said, my “hippie argument” point was that, for the times, it would not have been considered that out of the ordinary, as a theory, to discuss potential ways in which children might be raised that might be more constructive than what was going on in society at the time, that time being the sixties and early seventies.

    Again, this was a time when juvenile crime started to really manifest in ways unheard of previously. A good deal of this involved around drug use and sexual experimentation, and this was the period of time when STD’s and unwanted pregnancies amongst teenagers started to really increase to previously unheard of levels.

    That’s what I meant when I said that things like this have to be viewed in the context of the times in which they were written.

    As for Archeaeus, the Bubblegum Fairy, a quick explanation for my slams at him is to be found by going to his site and holding your browser over the link he has to my blog. Don’t click, just hold it there.

    Yeah, I attacked him previous to him doing this, because he is a hypocrite, screwing his friends wife, whining about it because he is criticized for it, making excuses for it all the while, and then having the gall to question other’s morality. He has no integrity.

    Finally, as to what people think of my own ethics, and the way I put myself across-well, I have promised to restrain myself on this blog. However, I do not consider myself a saint, nor do I feel the need to act like one on the basis of how others might view pagans in general.

    I don’t consider myself a leader, unless you consider rabble rousers on the same level as leaders. I just think of myself as one of a group of people who are trying to learn and grow and improve.

    That’s what you have in any group of people. You have philosphers, you have teachers, you have leaders, you have followers, you have artists, you have craftsmen, you have an aristocracy, you have a middle class, and you have commoners.

    I am a commoner. I am a little bit of everything else too. One thing about me. I am honest. Sometimes, though, I am a bullshitter.

    The main thing is, I don’t take myself too seriously. I like to have fun, and I like to raise hell. Sometimes when I seem to be shouting and angry, I am sitting here at the computer laughing my ass off.

    No, I do not consider myself particularly “moral”.I do consider myself ethical, however-there is a big difference in ethics and morals. I am as big a hedonist as you will find anywhere, and hate, more than almost anything, pretentiousness and hypocrisy. I am as much influenced by Anton LaVey as I am by Gavin and Yvonne or Scott Cunningham.

    So, now, I guess that’s just the name of that thar tune.

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    Knowledge Is Power| October 9, 2007 |

    Uhhmmm-hippies practiced free love and group sex, and did drugs on a regular basis, a good many times I am sure when their children and other’s children were around.

    The point to my hippie argument was based on the assumption that AJ Drew was relaying correctly and honestly the information as to what was in “The Witches Bible”.

    If it did say what he purports it said, my “hippie argument” point was that, for the times, it would not have been considered that out of the ordinary, as a theory, to discuss potential ways in which children might be raised that might be more constructive than what was going on in society at the time, that time being the sixties and early seventies.

    Well, like I said, I was there and so were a bunch of other kids. We saw drug use, we saw people learning about love and nope, didn’t see group sex or children involved in sex in any way. I don’t think my experiences were unsusual. I think kids who DID see it were unusual. Like I said, I was treated like I was sacred at any and ALL hippie gatherings. I was often NOT included in sexual discussions. I overheard some. One time, during a Sufi dance I was participating in, I was 7 or 8, an adult man grabbed an adult woman’s boob (we faced each other during the dance) and she got mad. I remember her clearly, she had a stretchy leotard type sleeveless top on, and she had long, straight dark hair, I even remember her face.

    I remember love ins and movies of the California ones that my uncle went to. There weren’t people having sex outside, but there were women walking around topless. It’s funny that those are the things mostly remembered about the hippie days, the California love ins, which was only a small majority and a small part of the hippie movement. The Vietnam war was always being discussed, I had relatives in it, my uncle married a Vietnamese woman. I had a bracelet with a MIA soldier’s name on it, Joseph Dunn. She made me some awesome psychedelic clothes 🙂 She’d design them herself. This was the hippie movement, creativity, learning about all kinds of new things.

    The hippie movement wasn’t all about drugs and sex. It was a total revolution. It was what made my parents take my brother and I out of school to take some awesome trips, feeling that seeing and experiencing the nature of this country would be a better education that sitting in a schoolroom. They believed that school was ok, but they bucked the system that kids couldn’t be taken out of school for 2 weeks to a month at a time. The Principle told my father he couldn’t take us. He told the Principle “I didn’t come here to ask you, I came here to tell you”. That was part of the revolution.

    My parents and their friends talked a lot. They’d get stoned and sit around eating and talking and getting high. They talked about animals and their ability to think and feel, they talked about drug use and love ins, they talked about Timothy Leary, about protesting, about EVERYTHING. This was the 60’s, this was the hippie times.

    Sorry to disappoint you, but there wasn’t anything including sex with kids. Yeah, parents started teaching us differently, we were told about our menses in school, my mother talked to me about sex, but told me it was something very special and should be done with someone I loved very much when I was much older. There was a revolution in how parents talked to their kids, but not like you think. My mother didn’t even know what her period was when she got it, she thought she was dying as did a lot of other little girls raised in the 40’s and 50’s.

    I have to go…but thought you might find this guy interesting

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    Shadowhawk| October 9, 2007 |

    To Aj Drew and the Drewbies and to our good friend Archaeus..I told you i would have a video response to you and alot of the things youlve been going on about.. So yes you finally get to see just who i am

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