Defusing Anger

Today’s numerology – Lots of eights, meaning worldly involvement; though it’s really a 7, a ruler of chaos.
Certain maxims sum up what we as “alternatives” often face : fanaticism and anger and an irrational drive to convert us to one or another conventional religion. Let us suggest a couple of such maxims that deserve to be executed in needlepoint and mounted prominently on a wall.
Anger masks fear.
Fanaticism masks doubt.
So someone approaches you spouting anger and fanaticism? When they pause for breath, jump in — using a calm voice — with some ideas they might not have thought of.
1. Let’s meet somewhere for coffee and exchange ideas (note : not a ranting monologue on either part, but an objective discussion of the beliefs of each participant). Here’s my promise: I’ll be calm if you’ll be calm. If either of us loses our cool, the discussion is closed for now.
2. If the ranter talks in an angry manner, that’s a prtty strong sign that underneath, s/he’s afraid you might just be right and s/he has wasted a lifetime believing a lie.
3. If s/he can only convince you that s/he has a case stronger than yours, then s/he can more confidently believe in the case s/he presents.
Often in these exchanges you will need to state in words of one syllable that we of the Craft do not recruit. If the ranter doesn’t like our path, by all means he should espouse his own path the more strongly. We don’t give a — well, a snap of the fingers. This is known as a libertarian mindset. But, just as you have no right to lean on him, he has no right to lean on you. He should go his way, confident of his own claim to the moral high ground. And tell it to Jesus. (No, you probably shouldn’t say that.) If he believes you’re nailing little piglets to crosses, or sewing shut the lips of corpses, he’s relying on false sources. Such ideas are based on allegations presented by Disney and his ilk; and we all know how true to life Disney films are. Anyway, here’s his chance to get genuine facts from one in a position to share them. (Make sure you are in such a position before you start uttering. Don’t run your mouth before you engage your mind.)
And again : We do not recruit. We strive to live a life of decency, in the vain hope that other people will just get out of our face and let us do it unmolested.
What else do cowans assume about us and our path? Ask your ranter what he believes and why he believes it. Insist he be definitive. Do what you can to point out the difference between
(a) hearsay and (b) evidence. This may be a challenge.
Blessed be.

  1. Avatar
    Carol Maltby| August 8, 2007 |

    Gavin and Yvonne,

    I’m going to ask you for the third time.

    Anyone who claims credentials must be prepared to have them verified.

    You both have claimed Doctor of Divinity (DD) degrees for over 30 years. A DD is the highest academic degree available in the UK, though in the US it is customarily only given as an honorary degree.

    When were those Doctor of Divinity degrees issued to you, and by what educational institution?

    Gavin, in biographical material posted on the web by George Knowles and Raymond Buckland it is claimed that you have a B.Sc. and Ph.D from Kings College London.

    Is this correct?
    Under what name were these degrees issued? What is the exact title of your doctoral dissertation?

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    Debra Ravenswoo| August 8, 2007 |

    Well met Gavin and Yvonne!

    Another great piece of work from the fingertips of the Frosts! But if I may be so presumptions, I feel it begs the question: What does one do with a Ranter who openly states they have had a head injury or some form of mental handicap?

    First off I have to ask myself why
    are they adding a side note such as this to their commentary?

    Are they seeking sympathy? Everyone knows Passive/Aggressive behavior truly is not an accepted way to generate good will.

    Are they looking for an “out” in the event their argument fails and leaves them with egg on their face?
    “Oh gee, I have brain damage and really do not recall saying those things?”

    Or do they really have brain damage and their commentaries should only be taken with a grain of salt by the public as a whole?

    As a general rule (for myself) I ignore angry fanatics and only respond to them when they are “in my face”.

    But when they are claiming brain damage as a side note, that is a clear indicator to me that I should just quit responding to the Ranter in any way shape or form and let them show the world how ill they truly are.

    Do you perhaps have any additional advice in dealing with people such as this?

    Love and Light,

    Debra Ravenswood

  3. Avatar
    sangathor| August 8, 2007 |

    “Do you perhaps have any additional advice in dealing with people such as this?”

    Perhaps you should assault that person with homemade dildos of varying sizes. If you don’t know how to make one, just pick up a copy of The Frost’s, Witches Bible. It’s a handy text to have around the house.

  4. Avatar
    Corban Macpherson| August 8, 2007 |

    To the Frosts:

    I’m sorry to say this, but I believe you are wrong. You can not invite a ranter/hater to coffee. They are not interested in civil conversation, or they would not be ranting. They will not except an apology, because they could not bring themselves to believe it. If you go and hide from them they will seek you out, for the ranter is driven by anger and hate. These emoitions will eat at them forever if they do not persue. And their minds can not change, if they were of an open mind, they would not be ranting.
    We “alternatives” will always be attacked by the xenophobes. They see anything that is different (alternative) as dangerous. And if its dangerous it must be destroyed.
    There is unfortunatly no course of action that one can take, other then to simply take the persecution and “turn the other cheek.” To quote an antient philosopher – “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil againest you falsely..,
    Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad: for great is your reward..,
    for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”

    Earth, Water, Fire, Air.
    May the powers guide and protect.

    Corban Macpherson,
    Atlantic Canada.

  5. Avatar
    Debra| August 8, 2007 |

    sangathor said…

    Perhaps you should assault that person with homemade dildos of varying sizes. If you don’t know how to make one, just pick up a copy of The Frost’s, Witches Bible. It’s a handy text to have around the house.

    My, my, aren’t we the angry one?

    Thank you but my copy of the Good Witch’s Bible is always handy. I have found the dildoe making section invaluable for providing hours of entertainment during those long dry spells of single parenthood.

    Also, I see the Frost’s have been successful in unmasking another wannabe Pagan and exposing them as fence sitters who go running back to their Christian upbringins at the first mention of sexuality or nudity.

    Lastly, just in case you aren’t aware….the First Amendment of the US Constitution STILL guarantees free speech and freedom of religion, assault in any form is still a criminal act.

    Therefore were I to act on your recommendations you would become an accomplice to said criminal act.

    Consider your words wisely ere they fall from your lips, fore in the morrow they may be your repast.

    May the Light of the Goddess always light your Path,

    Debra Ravenswood

  6. Avatar
    sangathor| August 8, 2007 |

    “Therefore were I to act on your recommendations you would become an accomplice to said criminal act.”

    With that line of thinking, anyone who takes a dildo and breaks their daughter’s hymen with it, as instructed in the “Witches Bible” is not only committing rape, but they are making the Frosts accomplices to that rape because they wrote about. Hey, wait a minute….

    I’m all for sex, I just think it should be among adults. The Frosts apparently don’t agree with me and they call it Wicca. You should be appalled.

  7. Avatar
    sangathor| August 8, 2007 |

    “Thank you but my copy of the Good Witch’s Bible is always handy. I have found the dildoe making section invaluable for providing hours of entertainment during those long dry spells of single parenthood.”

    I hope you weren’t using it as instructed.

  8. Avatar
    sangathor| August 8, 2007 |

    Just to get this straight, this is what you enjoyed for hours?

    “You have been entrusted with two phali[SIC]; these are in your care until your initiation. We would like you to be initiated at the next coven meeting, which will take place on …. This means that, excluding your menstruation time, you have three weeks to prepare your muscles for introitus. Your father or your sponsor will help you if you have any difficulties or pain. You may have to delay your initiation, but there is plenty of time and no need to hurry. These are important development phases. Relax and take your time. You have no hymen; there is no restriction except the vaginal muscles.”
    Gavin and Yvonne Frost, A Good Witch’s Bible

  9. Avatar
    Debra| August 8, 2007 |

    Boy Sangathor, that put a burr up your butt.

    Sangathor said a lot of things…. I wonder what Sangathor thinks about the circumcision of male children?

    Yes, Sangathor we are sexually abusing our children in the name of an angry Jewish God, and it’s all legal.

    Care to comment on that particular sexual abuse? Why do we so quickly welcome this practice with open arms? Could it be because a Jewish God decreed it in the “GASP” Holy Bible?

    Consider this…The Frost’s did nothing more than mirror the story of Abraham and his foreskin in a New Age book and all the Christo-Wiccan Pagans promptly turned out to show themselves for the frauds they truly are.

    Wake up Sangathor and smell the burning foreskins. The Frosts may have written about it but you pretend Wiccans have been abusing your children since before the birth of Christ!

    Show me one case where the Frosts have been convicted of hacking off the foreskin of male children or for that matter tearing the hymen of female children? And yet, the US populus openly circumcises their male children and it’s accepted?????

    I know hypocracy is a Christian characteristic, but I would have thought you would have a least given up that trait in your pursuit of a Pagan religion.

    I’m sure Sangathor, down deep your a wonderful person. But until you get your anger under control and start thinking for yourself; rather than assuming that someone who has a brain injury knows what they are rambling about, you will continue to come across as nothing more than another “pretend” Pagan.

    Goddess guide you,

    Debra Ravenswood

    Consider your words wisely ere they fall from your lips, fore in the morrow they may be your repast.

  10. Avatar
    ajdrew| August 8, 2007 |

    First let me say that my boy is not circumcised because I find the only medical use of circumcision is to maintain genital health when you do not have regular access to facilities to wash ones self. It is similar to keeping a shaven head when in the military or similar situations. Like Jewish dietary law, there are those who follow the old customs when eating pig was dangerous to ones health, and there are those who do not. For a religion whose scripture states that they wandered the dessert for 40 years, circumcision would have made a great deal of medical sense at the time.

    The Frosts instructions to destroy all signs of virginity (cutting the foreskin of the boys and breaking the hymen of girls) appears to be as early as 10 years old and was said specifically to be for the purpose of sexual initiation into a coven. Making references only to the destruction of physical signs of virginity is misleading. Comparing such an instruction which they support in the year 2007 (check their web site) to fairly sound medical advice for people who lived in a desert before hot and cold running water and reference to 5000 + year old scripture is flat out misrepresentation. Ancient Jewish laws concerning circumcision had absolutely NOTHING to do with getting their 10-year-old children ready to be raped in order to become a full fledged Jew. And Debra Ravenswoo knows this.

    The truly funny part of this discussion is that Debra Ravenswoo sounds exactly like Nightshy from where we discovered her more common name, used publicly, is Peg Aloi. So here she seems to be again, under yet another alias defending Gavin and Yvonne Frost. Last time I check The Witches Voice, where Peg Aloi is the media coordinator, she hadn’t said one positive thing about Gavin and Yvonne Frost under the name Peg Aloi. Last time I checked her personal blog, she hadn’t openly said one positive thing about Gavin and Yvonne Frost. Could it be that Peg Aloi knows that what the Frosts wrote is vial and disguesting to the people she works for? Could it be that she will only support and defend them secretly with alias after alias? Never a word defending what they wrote on The Witches Voice. Never a word about what they wrote in her blogs. Just a few misleading words under different aliases.

    Note that Debra Ravenswoo’s profile was created on the spot, this month, so she could post here. Ah, with this type of support, the Frosts aren’t going to get out of the wave of knowledge that is headed their way. You see no matter how hard you try to defend under all of your aliases, there is very little defense for what they wrote and have not apologized for or retracted.

    Children who are 10 years old should NOT be sexually initiated into Wiccan covens and for this person who most people that I know seems sure is Peg Aloi to state that we are not Wiccan because we find this material offensive is disguesting. You should be ashamed at yourself young lady.

    This is what Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote:

    This is what folk will see and this is why you will not use your real name in your defense of these people. You know that you are wrong. You know that they are wrong.

    Now as to Gavin and Yvonne Frost, this is the type of friend you have. You probably have the ability to check the IP address of the person who is claiming to be Debra Ravenswoo. Not that I think you are willing to tell the truth about it, but I am willing to bet that if you check it you will discover I am right and your friends won’t even support you with their real names.

  11. Avatar
    sangathor| August 8, 2007 |

    “Sangathor said a lot of things….”

    Yes I did, and as usual you answered none of them, because you cannot.

    I’ve said it before, it’s amazing about how much opinion you have on other peoples’ blogs under other names, but not a peep out of you on your own blog. And when you were questioned about it, you deleted all the comments and reset to a fully moderated blog. Says a lot about you.

  12. Avatar
    The Voice of Reason| August 8, 2007 |

    Apparently neither AJ Drew, nor Sangathor have done as much research as they want you to believe they have.

    Thank you Drew for comparing me to Peg Aloi. But as you said Ms. Aloi has not come out and expressed any opinion of the Frosts one way or the other. And I find your willingness to attack yet another innocent person in line with your previous behavior.

    Remember Sangathor it was YOU who attacked me because I posed a question to the Frosts….the post did not read “Dear Sangathor..”

    But you in your misguided willingness jumped right in there with both feet and immediately found yourself in over your head. To which you turned tail and ran to Drew for his support and guidance. Learn to think for yourself Sangathor and you will not find yourself in such situations.

    And Drew, since you’re such a good pagan and the leading authority on everything….shame on you. How dare you mislead innocent pagans and manipulate them to do your dirty work.

    You state you have have researched my identity? Ha. Perhaps you should research it some more. There is a blog out there both of you need to read regarding Media Wars.

    You are so adept in starting them and perpetuating them you might find it amusing that there are names for the tactics you employ. I’m sure your followers will.

    And Drew, the circumcision of male children is still sexual abuse…regardless of whether you live in the desert or on a mountain top. I am appalled that you think just because it is referenced in a 5000 year old scripture it is ok!!

    Shame on both of you.

  13. Avatar
    sangathor| August 8, 2007 |

    I attacked no one, I merely suggested a way of dealing with Debra Ravenswoo “problem”. The Frosts think it’s ok to do to your own children why not to someone who’s irritating you?

    I’m not sure who exactly you “The Voice of Reason” (I’m laughing as I say it out loud), or who “debra” who posted just before you is, but my comments were directed at a “debra ravenswoo”. Perhaps all three of you are the same person. It must be hard to keep track of all the alias. Just to keep it simple for me, I’ll just call you Peg.

  14. Avatar
    The Voice of Reason| August 8, 2007 |


    The Voice of Reason is a clue. You and Drew are so bent on accusing an innocent person I tried to make it easy for you to find out how misguided you truly are.

    My legal name is Debra Ravenswood….the name of my Blog is The Voice of Reason.

    I’m very sad because you come across as being so unaware that you can’t even rationalize something as simple as that.

    No wonder Drew is dragging you around by the nose. I wish you only the best.


  15. Avatar
    Carol Maltby| August 8, 2007 |

    The Frosts specifically say to Ellen Evert Hopman that they don’t believe in circumcision, in her interview with them for People of the Earth. They appear to be asking Church of Wicca mothers to cut the frenulums of their baby boys, or perhaps the ridged band (it’s hard to tell). It’s the area of the penis that has some of the most sensitive nerve endings that give sexual pleasure.

    Some complications of cutting the frenulum that are possible, especially when done by a mother with no medical training who discovered the path to her religion via the ads in the National Enquirer:

    “One of the most common sites for persistent bleeding is at the frenulum. Sutures placed in the area of the frenulum to control bleeding may lead to strangulation and necrosis of parts of the underlying urethra. This can result in the development of a urinary fistula.

    Kings College London has no record of Gavin Frost attending that school, and a Ph.D dissertation by him is not on file in their library.

  16. Avatar
    The Voice of Reason| August 8, 2007 |


    I don’t believe in circumcision. I think to do something like that to a child for no reason other than to make my life more convenient is an abomination…but we do it everyday.

    To date, I don’t know any Church of Wicca mother who has taken “the dildo section” of the Good Witch’s Bible seriously. And I doubt that you or anyone else could produce one.

    As I stated in another post, I’m not sure why you’re obsessed with Gavin’s DD of Divinity…They are a dime a dozen here in the US and anyone who does massage, reiki or any form of bodywork has one for liability purposes.

    I’m thinking Gavin graduated from Kings College but you don’t have all the information required to find him. Which seems to be typical of Drew’s followers.

    And I’m sure given the train of thought this thread has taken….Someone will come back and make something sexual or abusive out of the word “bodywork”.

    And all I can say to that is “get your minds out of the gutter and your heads out of AJ Drew’s butt”. Use your brain for something other than stuffing for your cranium.

    Gavin and Yvonne Frost were “tried” back in the 70’s when another author needed publicity and now it’s just a repeat performance of the same tired, repertoire.

    I just can’t believe you people DO NOT GET IT. I’ve tried to explain it to you, Isaac Bonewits (who was physically present at the time) tried to expain it to you, Oberon Ravenheart Zell tried and numerous others. And if you take a good long look at who support the Frosts and who doesn’t….the movers and shakers in the Pagan community are there with the Frosts…the wannabe crybabies are hanging out with Drew.

    Gavin and Yvonne Frost are not advocating abuse of children at the hands of their mothers, fathers or high priests.

    They published what we refer to as the “Dildo Section” as shock value to make you think…a feat most of you seem to be unable to accomplish. The second reason, and it has been a bonus, had been to show how Christo-Pagans run straight back to their Christian beliefs at the first sign of something different.

    AJ Drew’s smear campaign has been very successful in that it has unmasked many “wanna be”,”born again” or “pseudo” Pagans and exposed them as the frauds they are.

    I’ve had numerous people who come from multigeneraltional Pagan families remark that they did not realize such people existed. And would never have believed that they would run back to Christianity at the first drop of a hat. But, hey here you are.

    Well thank you Drew for dropping that hat and exposing your followers religious convictions. I just hope they aren’t upset with you when they realize what you’ve done to them.

    Again, I wish everyone the best and hope that at some point your brains will kick in and you’ll realize what idiots you’ve been.

    Until then, Love and Light,

    Debra Ravenswood

  17. Avatar
    Carol Maltby| August 8, 2007 |

    Debra Ravenswood is bringing Gavin and Yvonne Frost to the Heart of the Ozarks Pagan Pride Day on September 15, so her concern for their reputations is quite understandable.

    Thanks for the heads-up that many bodyworkers are using diploma mill DD (Doctor of Divinity) degrees. None of my bodyworker or counsellor friends use them, they’ve all worked for their degrees from reputable schools. There’s no honor in a bogus “honorary” degree, especially when you make it up yourself.

    A reminder to readers: when looking into therapeutic services for the body or mind, always check out the credentials of practitioners, and make sure that their certification information is legitimate.

    Sending away a check and getting a degree doesn’t count, nor do the ones you can get in the Cracker Jack box.

  18. Avatar
    Carol Maltby| August 8, 2007 |

    PS If you’re going to make up phony credentials, do remember that the Doctor of Divinity degree is supposed to be an academic degree from an institution of higher learning. It’s not supposed to be from a church.

  19. Avatar
    The Voice of Reason| August 8, 2007 |


    My gosh girl your posts just keep hitting left of the mark, don’t they? You just can’t seem to get anything right. What’s up with that?

    Did I miss Gavin and Yvonne’s post stating from where they received their DD Degrees? Or are you just shooting your mouth off again?

    Secondly I bet if you check with those bodyworker friends you claim that you have, none of them hold did anything more than attend a tech school or seminars for their training.

    There are a FEW colleges here in the US that provide degree programs in various healing modalities. I happen to hold one of those degrees, but it’s not a DD.

    As YOU stated in your original post, “in the US it is customarily only given as an honorary degree.” Honorary is a misnomer. Quite frankly they are a dime a dozen here in the US and I’m amazed that this is causing you angst.

    I’m glad to see you went to my BLOG, I hope you read the material contained there. Please read ALL of it, not just the perusal you generally do.

    I’m also pleased that you found that link to my website. I guess Drew is right, any publicity is good publicity.

    But again Carol you’re wrong in assuming I am concerned about Gavin and Yvonne’s reputations and the ramifications on my PPD. I’m not. Quite frankly I’m going to have a good time there. If no one else wants to show up, fine and dandy with me.

    I’ve personally known Gavin and Yvonne for over 10 years and danced with them at many a Witches Ball in Springfield MO before I ever invited them here.

    I have been aware of the controversy surrounding the Good Witches Bible since the 1970s and I also know what a load of Bovine Fecal Matter that controversy represents.

    I’m bringing the Frosts to our PPD because I believe they are intelligent, well spoken people who actually have useful information to impart to the world. And they are great dancers!

    Wait is this what your obsession is about? Are you actually jealous of someone who has the ability to do something other than read and regurgitate other people’s materials?

    Oh my Gosh! Miss High and Mighty is jealous! How so beneath the person you pretend to be!

  20. Avatar
    ajdrew| August 8, 2007 |

    Debra, as one of the reasons Pagan Pride states it exists is to interact with the press please know that many folk consider your hosting Gavin and Yvonne Frost to a Pagan Pride event to be a statement to the press that the pagan community is proud of Gavin and Yvonne Frost. I believe the press in your area will receive rebuttals to this notion which will include quotes form The Witches Bible. I figure if you are going to try and tell the press that the pagan community is proud of the Frosts, those who disagree should rebut your claims. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

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